ANSI Z133-2012 Crane Regulation Changes

Yes Mark, It makes a lot of good sense to me to have OSHA aboard our bandwagon!

I have the very highest regard for all the hands on pros responsible for this latest improvement in the Z regs on crane takedowns.

I'm actually kinda surprised there's no "shall" language requiring every crane used in tree takedowns to have a heavy duty positive locking gate on their hooks rather than the typical pin locking gates seen on most hook gates today. In my opinion the pin lock gates are the weakest most vulnerable component on most cranes today.

I say this because I've seen CO's lose their rigging hardware off their hooks busting through thick canopies when the hardware gets tangled in crotches, upending the crane ball, and bending the gate out to the point of failure. At that point it's look out below! This is a problem I feel is unique to our industry, and that there are very heavy duty positive locking hooks already on the market that can take the beating without failing.

http://www.thecrosbygroup.com/Portals/0/docs/NewProducts/s3326.pdf

A little something to consider for all the pros currently working trees down with cranes on a regular daily basis.

Jomoco
 
Jomoco, Can you please post a picture of your set up using that product? You seem to have experienced and/or seen a lot of tragedy over the years and it would help me to see how you are currently using that hook. Please include in the photo your slings and tie in point on the hook. Thanks.
 
Hey there Sinko, being semi-retired now I don't see anywhere near the action I used to as a full time production climber. But I still do crane takedowns every now and then for various companies I know well.

This is one of those dead trees that's every crane takedown climber's worst nightmare. One of those where you can't tie into the tree period, and must stay with the crane on each pick.

PictureDescansoCraneJob006.jpg


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And no that's not me in the pic, it's my buddy who owns the tree company I was subbing to, and his son standing next to the hollow trunk log from that tree.

I used a 90 ton hydrocrane with two working balls to dismantle that hollow oak. One ball for the pick, the other for me. I bumped into a beehive in that tree, got bit a few times spraying the nest with bee killer. Then screened their entrance hole shut, and picked that whole trunk section. The CO stayed locked inside his airconditioned cab since he was allergic to bee stings. He died last year from cancer. His son now runs the company and that crane.

I have lots of pics of me doing crane work on the hard drive of my old computer in storage at my sister's house.
I intend to set it up here in the next few weeks so I can download all the pics and vids on it to my Photobucket site here.

http://s623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/jomoco7/?start=all

Next time I do a crane takedown I'll take a few pics of my tie in method, which I believe is almost Identical to Dan Mayer's method. Who according to Mark C., now chairs the Z committee on crane takedown regs I believe.

Jomoco
 
I will wait at attention breathlessly at my computer for those picts and more of your enlightenment.

PS Looked like a pretty easy td. I guess if you are "semi retired" might be a bit of a struggle.

Maybe there should be a ranking system like corporal, sergeant...or white belt, brown belt, black belt (teacher) based on a test or hours in tree or tasks accomplished prior to being allowed to attempt some of these jobs like crane picks which incorporate a lot of knowledge and experience attained over the years (from setting up, rigging removals, moving around in tree for pruning, making the proper cuts, etc etc).

That way a noob or a rusty ole gate like jomoco are excluded from fumbling around with these dangerous situations. In my city, Cinci, I know most of the tree crane subs. I know that many of them have been relegated to actually teaching some climbers while the job is going on. I think this is deplorable but a sign of the times and economy. More and more high level arbs are buying their own cranes and a crane co has to stay in biz.

Plus crane removals are very trendy right now and maybe overused at times.
 
You're a funny guy TV, and remind me of a childhood friend of mine.

Back in my Moto crossing days a buddy and I were very competitive on open class bikes and rode hard at every opportunity.

Well I bumped into this childhood friend one day, he invited me to his home, took me into his garage and showed me his pristine and shiny ATK open class desert bike, a beast of a bike, totally immaculate in every detail. He went on and on about how fast it was and how many dudes he'd smoked on it, how much HP it had etc.

So I suggested he take it out to Lake Morena the coming weekend and ride with my buddy and I. Sure enough he shows ans starts making snide remarks about the beat up condition of my buddy's Honda and my Yamaha. It was true our bikes and riding gear were pretty thrashed next t o his pristine gear and immaculate ATK.

But when we took off riding it only took less than a minute before childhood friend was nowhere in sight other than a small diust cloud way behind us.
My buddy and I politely stopped and waited. He finally caught up, took his shiny helmet off and said, hey you guys didn't tell me you were pros! My buddy laughed and said, we aren't pros, you're just a pathetic rider on a badass bike!

Off to work this morning TV. Nothing serious, just typical run of the mill removals old friend!

Jomoco
 
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You're a funny guy TV, and remind me of a childhood friend of mine.

Back in my Moto crossing days a buddy and I were very competitive on open class bikes and rode hard at every opportunity.

Well I bumped into this childhood friend one day, he invited me to his home, took me into his garage and showed me his pristine and shiny ATK open class desert bike, a beast of a bike, totally immaculate in every detail. He went on and on about how fast it was and how many dudes he'd smoked on it, how much HP it had etc.

So I suggested he take it out to Lake Morena the coming weekend and ride with my buddy and I. Sure enough he shows ans starts making snide remarks about the beat up condition of my buddy's Honda and my Yamaha. It was true our bikes and riding gear were pretty thrashed next t o his pristine gear and immaculate ATK.

But when we took off riding it only took less than a minute before childhood friend was nowhere in sight other than a small diust cloud way behind us.
My buddy and I politely stopped and waited. He finally caught up, took his shiny helmet off and said, hey you guys didn't tell me you were pros! My buddy laughed and said, we aren't pros, you're just a pathetic rider on a badass bike!

Off to work this morning TV. Nothing serious, just typical run of the mill removals old friend!

Jomoco

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That is an AWESOME story buddy, maybe they make a movie about it. Could star Paul Reubens, don't think he is working right now and he could kick some serious booty on a bike as well.
 

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This was an interesting read. I have the utmost respect for all involved in the regulation process. I know is not an easy task to keep everyone satisfied.

One thing that came to mind when thinking about the double tie in when ascending into the tree is this:

If a double tie in is made mandatory, should radios also be made mandatory?

Reason: There has been enough times (especially on larger cranes 100-200T because of distance between operator and climber) that my saw, rope bag, lanyard ect has been caught on a stub or branch and a hand signal wasn't noticed by the operator. This required me to quickly zip down on my line to avoid being hurt. The double tie in would hinder this.

For this very reason, when the crane op. i am working with doesn't use a radio and i am being pulled up though the tree i unclip one end of my buck strap to reduce the chance of getting hung up.

The reason for the double tie in makes sense but it could raise another problem if there is poor communication between operator and climber

Just a thought
 
Radio's would be nice.
But, if my crane operator can't see me, he doesn't do anything. I'm at a stand still as soon as I leave his site. That's what I tell my crane operators to do.
A signal person watches me and signals to the crane operator, usually duplicating my signals.
That's all done during the 'job briefing' before the job starts.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Radio's would be nice.
But, if my crane operator can't see me, he doesn't do anything. I'm at a stand still as soon as I leave his site. That's what I tell my crane operators to do.
A signal person watches me and signals to the crane operator, usually duplicating my signals.
That's all done during the 'job briefing' before the job starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... but sometimes your going up through a thick tree. Or the spotter is not paying attention. I have done many 10's of thousands of tree removals off a crane and this happens very rarely but when it happens it's bad.
 
Finesse is difficult to attain from the op during blind picks even with radios and or a spotter. 2nd most dangerous picks to working close to the hots. I had a near death experience year or so ago with a big barkless elm totally blind over a house and the op nearly tugging the piece off with 180 ft. of stick out with me attached to it while I just wanted it snugged up.

Those over the roof jobs will be hard to legislate on.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Radio's would be nice.
But, if my crane operator can't see me, he doesn't do anything. I'm at a stand still as soon as I leave his site. That's what I tell my crane operators to do.
A signal person watches me and signals to the crane operator, usually duplicating my signals.
That's all done during the 'job briefing' before the job starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... but sometimes your going up through a thick tree. Or the spotter is not paying attention. I have done many 10's of thousands of tree removals off a crane and this happens very rarely but when it happens it's bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if they are watching you...if you momentarily get an ankle or a wrist even mildly lodged in a crotch...it'd be difficult for an op to see it or react before some serious damage happens.

you still on that "10's of thousands" ridiculousness?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Radio's would be nice.
But, if my crane operator can't see me, he doesn't do anything. I'm at a stand still as soon as I leave his site. That's what I tell my crane operators to do.
A signal person watches me and signals to the crane operator, usually duplicating my signals.
That's all done during the 'job briefing' before the job starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... but sometimes your going up through a thick tree. Or the spotter is not paying attention. I have done many 10's of thousands of tree removals off a crane and this happens very rarely but when it happens it's bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if they are watching you...if you momentarily get an ankle or a wrist even mildly lodged in a crotch...it'd be difficult for an op to see it or react before some serious damage happens.

you still on that "10's of thousands" ridiculousness?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know i never said that before...but u are right...i meant to say out of many picks it happens rarely but when it does you need to be able to do something about it...didn't mean to come across like a d-bag...but guess i did.
 
You don't get it TV. There are lots of big commercial tree companies that specialize in federal and state removal contracts that do 10k + removals in one year!

Not every outfit's as dinky as yours.

Not every climber's as presumptuous and condescending as you, and that's a very good thing.

You only succeed in coming off as a pompous annoyance who never left the short bus that seems to circle inside your own little insulated neighborhood..

Jomoco
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Radio's would be nice.
But, if my crane operator can't see me, he doesn't do anything. I'm at a stand still as soon as I leave his site. That's what I tell my crane operators to do.
A signal person watches me and signals to the crane operator, usually duplicating my signals.
That's all done during the 'job briefing' before the job starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... but sometimes your going up through a thick tree. Or the spotter is not paying attention. I have done many 10's of thousands of tree removals off a crane and this happens very rarely but when it happens it's bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if they are watching you...if you momentarily get an ankle or a wrist even mildly lodged in a crotch...it'd be difficult for an op to see it or react before some serious damage happens.

you still on that "10's of thousands" ridiculousness?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know i never said that before...but u are right...i meant to say out of many picks it happens rarely but when it does you need to be able to do something about it...didn't mean to come across like a d-bag...but guess i did.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you didn't. I must have been thinking of someone else that recently said that and it is hard to fathom. My bad...just a superlative. Sorry.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You don't get it TV. There are lots of big commercial tree companies that specialize in federal and state removal contracts that do 10k + removals in one year!

Not every outfit's as dinky as yours.

Not every climber's as presumptuous and condescending as you, and that's a very good thing.

You only succeed in coming off as a pompous annoyance who never left the short bus that seems to circle inside your own little insulated neighborhood..

Jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouchy again...we should take some time and have a real piscing contest. How long have you been in the business. Actual full time. What do you have equipment wise. Where and how do you live, what do you own...that kind of stuff. Pictures, verifications...

I think you'd be surprised what I made last year.

You gonna come up on the short side my friend.

We got what...maybe 5 years hangin out together on 3 forums? I still really dislike you. You a big blowhard imo. You couldn't carry my jock around. Plus pretty certain I could easily kick your as s even at 63.:-)

Cheers, Dave
 
If you'd quit bragging bout how much equipment you have and how much you made, and know blah blah blah, and stop to think about how a large commercial company operates outside your little world, you'd realize how ridiculous your assumptions are TV.

Federal contracts mean navy, marine etc housing and bases. Just one naval housing removal contract above what was then Jack Murphy stadium right here in San Diego called Murphy Canyon Naval Housing, had 6K removals. I was the foreman/climber of a 7 man crew with an in house crane. We blew that job out in slightly over 6 months averaging 50-60 trees a day TV. The bulk of the trees were fastigates, look in your books if your confused. I could drop 5-6 of those on top of each other, choke them all together and crane them into a bc1800 in 15 minutes flat. Crane removals TV, do the math.

Later that same year we removed 3K trees for a state road widening contract for the state because the new Rincon Casino north of SD had just opened. Very similar contract to Murphy Canyon Naval, same crew, blown out in 3 months. That leaves an easy 2 months in that year alone to do another 1K removals TV.

I'm a contracting removal specialist who doesn't need to buy jack other than my tool truck and gear.

The company is Atlas Environmental, call Brian the general manager and ask him about me TV, you dork.

Jomoco
 
This sort of blathering back and forth should go on in PMs or over the phone. Chest thumping, to put it politely, has nothing to do with this thread.

Get a room you two and tear it up.
 
The fact that large commercial companies can easily do over 10K crane removals a year, and be compliant to the new Z crane regs is pertinent to this thread, though perhaps an eye opener to some forum members here unfamiliar with large commercial firms.

I'm quite certain it's no news to commercial loggers though Tom.

Educations a good thing, even according to TV.

Jomoco
 
[ QUOTE ]
This sort of blathering back and forth should go on in PMs or over the phone. Chest thumping, to put it politely, has nothing to do with this thread.

Get a room you two and tear it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK sorry, let's resume the discussion. But wait...one more question...Does he consider flopping a tree and craning it into a chipper a crane removal. Might have to be considered in the Z (on topic)
 
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