analyze this stump

Mahk showed me the stump when I was there this past week. If the cutter had used a hammer or the back of a handsaw I think he would have had a better understanding of where the solid wood was in the stump. The quadrant where the tree barberchaired was the most solid. The rest of the wood was more punky and would have thumped differently.

There are also really subtle differences in the way that the saw cuts in less than solid wood. Since the saws cut so quickly the cutter needs to have a real keen awareness. The tactile vibe is different. Knowing that a tree is hollow has made me pay attention to the sawcut. The texture of the chips and color are also clues.

How could this have been avoided? Lets say that the face is already cut, then the back cut is started. The cutter starts the back cut and realizes that what was thought to be solid would was actually punky. Stop the saw and reconsider.

A higher face could be cut realigning it in a better direction.

A second rope could be installed to add another vector force. Leave the first one in place until #2 is set and snug.

The second cut would be made with a holding strap I think.

Any other solutions as long as we're being sidewalk engineers? :)
 
Thanks for all your input and sorry for the late response. Tom D. presented an EHAP workshop on Friday and I was busy with organizing all of the final details for that .

Funny that this thread appeared at the same time as the 'Barber Chair' thread. The events seem to be very similar, with very minor differences. But, I know no more about that incident than what everyone else has seen here on the Buzz.

For the tree shown in this thread, however, I was on the scene. The tree went east. Noone was hurt. The tree was on the outskirts of a condominium complex, on the backside of a detention pond. The only damage was to the far side of the fence that encompassed the detention pond. Two sections of the fence were knocked down, but were easily straightened and put back up. One 2X4 had to be replaced.

I take the blame for the tree going awry. The faller/climber has ten or fifteen years experience, is a good, up to date climber, but has been with our company for only about six weeks. I could have changed or corrected any detail at any point in the felling procedure, but this seemed like a good place to see what the faller could do with a problem tree.

This is long. The salient points are:

1) reducing the canopy was planned, but then not carried out (to save time???).

2) the pull line was set around the center branch of the tree and pulled directly N. The line could have been positioned around the entire canopy and been anchored more to the west to offset the canopy weight to the east.

3) the notch seems to have been made with no or only a minimal investigation of the condition of the base of the tree. There was ivy covering the stump after the tree was on the ground ( I had to remove it to take the pictures) and the faller had no idea that the tree was hollow until after he made the notch.

4) there seems to have been no further investigation made of the base of the tree after the notch was made. There was ivy covering the stump after the tree was on the ground ( I had to remove it to take the pictures).

5) the back cut was made incorrectly. There was almost twice as much holding wood on the compression side as on the tension side.



The tree was in an unkempt area that had trees/brush/grass about six feet high. The ground sloped up from the base of the tree towards the intended line of fall, so the faller couldn't see his lay and the people on the pull line could not see the faller. The tree was a beech, dead, no leaves on it, but it still had its smaller twigs. The trunk was upright, no lean, and no external signs of being hollow. The canopy was light to light/moderate. The canopy did not have a lean, but it was one-sided to the east because of other surrounding trees on the west. The scaffold structure had three main limbs (not quite big enough to be called leads)--one upright, one very slightly to the east and one more to the east.

There was a fence about fifteen feet to the west of the trunk of the tree and this ran parallel to the intended lay and continued well past the work area. There was also a fence about 15 feet to the east of the trunk of the tree, but this ran parallel to the lay for only about 30 feet, then turned about 45* and headed NNE. If the tree fell as intended, the trunk would fall N, between the two fences and the canopy would land beyond where the east side fence opened up. There was enough room that even if the tree strayed to the east a little bit it still would not hit the fence.

When he had looked at the tree the day before, the climber had planned to climb the tree and remove some of the limbs on the east side (he could have climbed the beech itself or there was an oak to the south that had a good tie-in spot to work out of). This day he had just successfully felled another, slightly larger tree (a dead oak) that had been just up hill from the beech. After that tree (the oak) was on the ground I looked at the stump and I questioned how he had performed his backcut. The feller disputed my suggestions for doing it differently, we chipped the limbs and then moved on to the beech.

The climber said that he had decided to fell the beech whole, rather than climb and reduce the east side of the canopy. He set the pull line on the branch that was directly over the trunk of the tree. This gave some pull to the trunk of the tree, but did little or nothing to offset the lean of the rest of the canopy. I asked, but he did not want to anchor the pull line any further to the west.

The feller made his notch and then came up the hill to check the lay. He said that the tree was hollow, but the notch was right on target. I went down to look at the notch. The brush was so high that it was difficult to tell exactly where the notch was pointing. It seemed to me to be just a very small bit to the west of the intended lay, but I didn't think that there was any danger (or even any chance) that the tree would pull too far to the west. I still wanted the feller to proceed in whatever way he wanted, so the only point I made was that, at this point, we had to fell the tree. We were not going to try to climb it now to reduce the canopy.

We tensioned the pull line, and the feller started the backcut. The tree moved just slightly towards the intended lay then went east. Almost due east. Far enough east that, when the tree was on the ground the pull line was tight. The small fibers on the top of the splinter in the second attachment show the direction of fall--almost at a right angle to the intended lay.

Its hard to tell the relative sizes of each side of the hinge from the photos, but the east (compression) side was almost twice as wide as the tension (west) side (the second attachment shows the east side by itself). I tried to explain to thje faller that he should have set a small hinge on the compression side first and then proceeded to the tension side, but he disagreed and disputed any point I tried to make. He said "You'll never convince me..." so I just left it at that. Talking with him then would not have met with anything except resistance, but I know I need to address it later.

Removing the ivy and sounding the trunk before making the notch would have helped the faller see the condition of the trunk and may have made him change his mind about dropping the tree whole. Removing the ivy and sounding the trunk after the notch was made may have made him change the pull line or make the back cut differently. Boring the back cut to establish the hinge may have helped the trees direction of fall,. but only if the faller had established a correct hinge. Setting a wedge on the compression side may have helped (again with a correct hinge), but I think there was more of a chance of the tension wood breaking rather than the compression wood collapsing.

The wood on the tension side was decayed, and I don't know that any or all of these techniques would have set the tree exactly on the intended lay. But the tree would have been a lot closer. I wasn't surprised that the tree hit the fence and it didn't really upset me. What bothered me was that the faller was adamant that he had done everything correctly. The stump was still sitting in our yard when Tom visited, a week after the event occured. Once emotions settle down I'll look for other sites/jobs where we can cut and examine trees and stumps.
 
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This is long. The salient points are:



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No need to apologize for a good explanation...too little info is a lot more of a problem than too much. That is why some of my posts get a little long...folks can always tune out, glaze over if it is too much.

Thanks for the explanation. I recently cut a leaner that I discovered was hollow AFTER I notched it. When I learned treework, I never saw anyone test trees for soundness before cutting/climbing. Maybe the boss did it when I was not around...or the lead climber may have. I know some we climbed were good and dead and I never liked them.

Your post reinforces to me the importance of sounding/testing trees BEFORE climbing/felling. Thanks.
 
Mark thanks for taking the time to explain. It's good to hear so little damage was done.

It's hard to imagine hiring someone who 'knows it all' already, you lucky dawgs. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dan
 
Yes, Thanks!

What do y'all think about torquing strategies of adjustment; such as:

A> Hitching to a strong West arm of the tree, tracing the line behind tree to the east, then bending the line around the spar to come out on the NE of Spar, to be then pulled back West (So line pull bends around spar to torque West, as well as pull West). i think this longer path, more rotational pull on load tree to target is better.

B> Operating the levearaged corners of the hinge seperately/imbalanced to each other(but hopefully more balanced to the load), rather than machined balanced as generically one. Whereby, you might cut a narrow face, then open up the side of the hinge away from lean more, to give a type of step dutchman in one side. That proposably would allow a certain degree of movement/ increase of force and angle, and close the lean side hard, to push West, as the open face on West also pulls West. So that the lean side (that gets more power from a close anyway as is more loaded and pivotal position); closes first and pushes away from lean as the offside is still pulling.

The torque in each case coming from equal and opposite pull/pushes working in concert at opposite edges of device against each other/ but not inline to give twist rather than total linear stratetgy. A twist traveling a straight line to target, incuring more distance of effort than the straight line itself. Whereby, something wider (and strong enough) offers more leveraged positioning; the strategy that pits the load size on this axis against it's self to target.

In 'good wood' i would pull North, and force stronger hinge (as another multiplier to your effort besides besides distance and angle), then let that stronger hinge fight the imbalance across it. For pulling to the West to fight lean, unloads hinge of that responding task load; but would be necessary in 'lesser' woods and conditions that limit hinge/face adjustment potential. With only so much input force, i'd rather leverage it N, than carry the imbalance lean myself, unless i have to/ wood is dysfunctional to task. A 'healthy' hinge/ good wood is trying to self adjust load lean imbalance to target; pulling N would intensify effect, pulling West would unload that automatic / responding force and lose it's leveraging (in good wood strategy).

In solid more than elastic wood conditions, i think relying some on the push in face as a solid on solid crunch/ less need for elasticity. i think face pushes from an 1 early side closing as stated or even slight kerf dutch on the lean side only, offers the target side as releif. The probelm with barberchairing is full confrotation of force matching against it's own self; with no releif i think. i think torqued actions induce another effort multiplier.
 
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Mark, in your opinion, was the tree safe to climb?

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In a word, yes. But I should give a little more explanation.

The climbing that the climber had planned on doing was removing two branches, both on the east side of the tree. The first was the lowest, longest branch. It extended over and beyond the fence on the east side of the tree and would require some limb walking. The end would have to be cut and lowered, then, maaaybe one log, then the rest of the branch could have been pieced into the brush immediately below the tree without the use of a rope. The second branch that he had planned on cutting was higher and shorter and could easily be tied off, cut, and lowered without having to do any limb walking or moving away from the main stem of the tree. Removing these two branches would have narrowed the tree quite a bit and the rest of the tree could then have fit between the two fences even if the east side fence had continued in a straight line. If, when he was in the tree, the climber had decided to remove more than just those two branches, then the rest of the top could have been pieced out into the brush below without any more roping and by climbing only a little bit higher. The climber didn't mention removing any more than the first two branches, but this helps point out that the canopy was not very big.

When I looked at the beech from a distance I had a general idea of how this could be done and what crotches could be used. But, there were two adjacent trees that looked like they might also be used. One was an oak that was just on the other side of the fence on the west side of the beech. There were several crotches that could be used to lower the longer, lower limb, although the pieces would have to be pendulumed into the brush in order to avoid hitting the fence or having the piece left hanging on the other side of the fence. The second limb could be easily done out of either tree.


As I approached the beech, fighting my way through the brush, my attention was drawn to the second adjacent tree which was just to the south of the beech. This tree was also an oak and had a good crotch that could be used as a tie-in point rather than tieing into the beech. The crotch was high, open, and the branch was situated so that it would be easy to hit and the climbing rope would be pulling against the branch at a right angle. I didn't do much more than a cursory inspection of all of this, but my feeling was that tieing into the south oak and lowering out of the west oak seemed a better option than using the beech itself.

It looked like there was a way to climb the beech and do the work out of the beech itself. But, the beech was dead enough that I did look at the possibility of using other, adjacent trees to set the climbing and rigging lines. Since there were other nearby trees that could be used, I think it would have been better to use the two adjacent oaks. Either way, the beech could have been climbed.
 

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