alternatives to GRCS

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He asks for other options.. I gave hime a good one.. qualified it.. obviously not appropriate for many scenarios.. BUT certainly could be used much more effectively that the GRCS in many situations..


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Daniel is right. And seeing that Daniel has much wide open spaces to work with, he can pull off some creative stuff with a skid steer.

Suburban usage of the GRCS is ideal and could be an everyday tool. Therefore, there isn't really an alturnative, yet.

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That might have been 10 pulls 400-600 lbs each, coming 75' across the creek and through the yard. It was a quick and easy pull with the skid steer.. would have been rediculous to even consider the GRCS for that task..

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This I disagree with: 400-600lbs with a GRCS & drill would be easy... It could be done fast and effective. Granted, not as fast as a skid steer, but good enough if one did not have a skid steer.
 
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I found the working draw off the winchbolder on my laptop.
In the meantime its allready gone from drawing to a real life thing.
But there's nothing changed compared to the drawing.

see for yourselves :

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It looks really nice.

The drawing makes it look like it will be difficult (or slow) to wrap the rope around the bollard. Do you know if that the will be the case?

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And BTW treestyler.. that's an awesome design there.. now there is some creativity

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The design is not mine it's from Steven Ibelings.
He has figured it out and made the technical drawings. He has made about 10 off them and they are allready for sale.
The price i'm not sure about but it's something around 2400 euros.

it's worth it's price in gold in my opinion and it's better then the GRCS because there's no need to switch between things. You can easily winch and use the bolder at the same time.

I'm hoping to post some pictures next week.

climb safe & respect eachother

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Well done Steven Ibelings, thats a smart concept
beerchug.gif


High impact loading - how does it fair? WLL?

If Steven needs another tester to put it to the sword then please consider me an option!

Thanks for posting treestyler, look forward to seeing more.
 
I'll admit that I wasn't paying full attention to Daniel's posting. An aggro PM brought this to my attention. I was wrong.

When BrendonV asked about where to get a skidsteer for less than $2000, then Daniel answered about the pull with truck alternative, I didn't see that he previously stated to use a redirect block. I just didn't expect the change in tactics. I mean since nobody is cutting trees like him. Nobody.

I guess that I was distracted by the response to getting a very expensive skidsteer, which of course also means an expensive trailer, to be pulled by an expensive truck, as an alternative to a $2000+ winch. Of course, many people can't use a skid steer at their jobs, since many people work in tight quarters. Big, open suburban lawns are different. Not everyone wants to bring $5-10000+ worth of equipment with them to every job, especially when there are a lot of alternatives.

It's good to have many tricks in your bag, and use the one appropriate to the situation.

I think that the Original Poster was asking for a less expensive alternative that is more applicable to more situations.

You can also consider using a wire rope winch with wire rope block(s). An inexpensive winch can be had for light lifting. It can be portable, too.

Be sure to have a balanced rigging system.
 
a perfect example

I didn't make any assumptions.. the OP might have access to a skid steer, or truck.. he just requested options..

Just occurred to me the last job was a perfect example of scenario where the skid steer was far better to use than the GRCS..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puTjkI9qSfs

72 second video.. short and sweet

One cut.. GRCS is 100 yards away in the back of a truck... skid steer is so much faster and easier than setting up and breaking down the GRCS

additionally, had any control been needed during the swing, I could have gone up or down quickly with the porty attached to the skid loader, all the while keeping all parties well out of the LZ.. That is a rare situation, BUT offers the option when needed..

You can't get much lift out of that crank handle during a swing with the GRCS.. And getting it out of the LZ often requires the use of an additional redirect and well placed ground anchor (tree). These are not needed with the skid steer.

I hope Mr Dunlap will consider the value this post and video ad to the conversation here at TB, and forgive me if the tone of my previous posts show signs that I have grown tired of the attitude of posters here that should be wiping the snot of their faces, rather than acting like they have a clue about doing tree work.
 
Re: a perfect example

'Mr.'???

Please, that's reserved for court.

I prefer 'Tom' or else I look over for the ghost of my Dad :)
 

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Re: a perfect example

One concern I have with pulling with a machine, especially a skid steer is that you cannot determine your input force, therefore the rigging line is more likely to be overloaded, and if it fails you are sitting there in the seat of the skid steer and could get smacked by the recoil. The GRCS is less likely to do this. Not saying that The GRCS couldn't break a rigging line but I think it would be easier to "feel" the stress on the rigging.
 
Re: a perfect example

That's a cool cad design and image, but it leaves a lot to wonder about.

Mounting would be typical of course,

But how is the line threaded?

Can it self tail?

How do you crank it?

How do you switch from pulling to lowering.

It does look fancy. Take Reg up on the offer to field test it. I have faith and trust he will prove its metel and give it a fair and honest review of all the features.

I'm excited.
 
Re: a perfect example

Just tested it last night up to 7000 kilo's (15400 LBS) off pulling strength. This was all monitored by a loadcell and the test setup was great. The WLL test and breaking test are coming up the next weeks...
winching strenght we just got above 2000 (4400) kilo's last night with one hand winching !

The pictures are on Stevens camera and he will send me a couple when ever he's back home. The winch is selftailing (harken) and the drum off the bolder is just the same as an regular bolder but with a gap in it.

You cam lower smaller pieces on the winch or the drum but heavy peaces seems to be interesting not to rig off on the winch. Converting them is easy but takes a step or two. Putting a knot on the rigging line and clip it into the triangle thats been cut out for this purpose.

I'll post the pictures as soon as i've got them.

greetz wouter & steven
 
you can lift about max of 220 LBS with this dodgy block......that's not much for rigging purpose in my opinion.

smart thing about the winchbolders is that they have this huge ratio wich allows you to lift about 2000 kilo's (4400 LBS) thats more than ever needed for serious and controlled rigging.....

pictures are coming up.....

wouter
 
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you can lift about max of 220 LBS with this dodgy block......that's not much for rigging purpose in my opinion.



wouter

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Where'd you get that information Wouter? and that my work is dodgy? And there's me offering to help you.
 
Oke Reg,

I was looking at the picture posted and in that setup you can only lift twice the force a man can pull (about 110 lbs X2)

I'm not saying that the block is bad or not functional in another setup but as it is shown on the picture from soundsouthtree it's not much winching capacity and looks a little bit dodgy to me. I haven't worked with it.... I personally prefer closed blocks for rigging purpose. It's a nice design but not something I would buy.

The offer you made to help me is nice, but I'm not the guy that has created the winchbolder and sure am not the person to answer to you or thank you for helping out.

It was not my purpose to offend you personally in any way and I think it's great that climbing and rigging materials are renewed and changed by climbers and manufacturerers to make our daily job even better. but every climber has it's personal oppinion about the different tools of the trade and it's for everyone to decide what he finds good and bad.

It's nice that you want to help out but then you have to get in contact with Steven. You can pm me for details.
 
I think that the "Simple 3:1" and the Stein pulley are more for pretensioning lines than lifting. I didn't explain/ clarify this in my post. I regular 3:1, fully set-up with pulleys, would lift better, and be a better alternative to the GRCS, per the OP's question.

I've used the "Simple 3:1" system before with success when I've had to tip-tie branches reaching over the roof of the house which needed lifting and lowering. I simply had the groundman install a running bowline from the ground at the tip of the branches, relieving me of needing to limb walk. Fast and easy.
 
Reg-

On the Stein lowering devices, does each have an anchor point(s) for attaching fiddle blocks or other MA system which uses 2 or more pulleys?



Regarding the Stein pre-tensioning pulley, is it appropriate to use a rope grab with that system in place of the prussik? Or maybe I should ask, are there any prohibitions on using such a rope grab with the Stein pulleys? I imagine that Stein may need/ want to stay away from including anybody else's patented rope grab device in their instructional videos.

I would be more inclined to use a step/time saving single cheekplate pulley if I could also save the larger amount of time by using a quick attach rope grab such as I believe the fiddle blocks use. A rope friendly ascender-type rope grab, operable by one hand, would be even nicer.

With the Stein double bollard device, which has the folding handle, what amount of "winching"/ MA power does it have?
 
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you can lift about max of 220 LBS with this dodgy block......that's not much for rigging purpose in my opinion.
wouter

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I'm sure I've lifted around 400 lbs. with that set up on the Stein pulley.
I've used it for pretensioning, as well as lifting.
Thanks again Reg.
 
Oke Norm that's interesting

What can a person pull in LBS ?
In Kilo's I know its about 100 kilo's and that would be 110 LBS ?
How much does that create when doubled as in the picture is shown. 220 LBS or am i wrong in my lbs calculation....
 
A single person that can lift their own weight, without using their feet to grab any additional weight, should be able to triple their force (minus friction to the pulley, and friction to the bollard). You can get 2 people pulling as well.

When the force is applied to the pulley, it greatly reduces the friction drag on the drum. Pulleys sound to be about 10% inefficient for a decent pulley, from what I've heard. I couldn't really estimate the "inefficiency" at the bollard.

Question: How do these two inefficiencies compound? Are they added?

Suppose I weigh about 185 pounds/ 90 kg. Triple that = 545 pounds of force. Subtract an arbitrary 30% for friction = about 400 pounds, or around 180 kg.

If I were to add a re-direct pulley at the base of the tree, and push with my legs, I could sit (assuming safely) on the ground push much more than my bodyweight. Since I can lift my bodyweight with either leg (plus more - walking up stairs carrying anything in addition to myself, even piggyback riding someone), I could theoretically generate more than 800 pounds of force (I think).
 
You can pull roughly equivalent to your own body weight.. multiply that by the three legs of line created by using the pulley, and you should be able to lift roughly 3x your body weight.
 
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