Accessing a tree

[Lazarus2]

Footlocking is bio-mechanically inefficient. The better you get at it, the more you set your body out of alignment.

There are safer, more efficient methods and techniques that will reward you much better in the long term.

Don't neglect your ladder either - the most efficient way to access smaller trees requiring a few changeovers.

 

[No_Bivy]

when all else fails.....Huckle-buck that tree

 

[Blinky]

I'm a tree-hugger but huckle-bucking is definitely OUT.

 

[No_Bivy]

don't lie chip....we all end up doing it a little. Some of us more then others.....

 

[KentuckySawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
when all else fails.....Huckle-buck that tree

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that like "cooning" a tree?

 

[No_Bivy]

hog style or dog style...whatever it takes

 

[Tom Dunlap]

"Best" is hard to agree on.

Knowing how to footlock is important but I don't feel that it is close to the best. An analogy...knowing how to use a rotary dial phone is important but is it that valuable a skill? I'd rather use my keypad or preset numbers for my common calls.

Using proper ergonomic practices will pay off in the long run. Saving a few dollars or seconds of time in your youth is likely to cost lots of dollars and time spent mending in the future.

 

[Blinky]

Footlocking is far from obsolete. It's very efficient, requires minimal gear and it's safe. If it's not your cup of tea that's great, but the rotary phone analogy doesn't fit.

Ergonomics are important but the human body is flexible; well developed musculature allows it to break perfect alignment without strain. If you footlock with good, disciplined posture it's not rough on the joints.

This is Rob B. going into the tree in the Southern Chapter Masters, he's just finished compressing and is about to stand up and extend. His knees are close together, his body is aligned with the direction he's traveling... that's not a grimace on his face, he's talking to the judges as he climbs...

Some people like to use lots of gear, that's cool, I like gear.. but some don't. For the brief time it takes to get into the tree, I want to use a correspondingly brief amount of gear.

You don't have to use a prusik and hold your body weight for the whole ascent. A pair of ascenders and some cordage is all you need to footlock 75' without fatigue because you can rest as often as you like without having to unjam anything. Everything else is part of the regular DdRT kit, no extra static rope, no ascent hardware on your body, no confusion about what backs up what.

I'm not saying footlocking is THE BEST access method for everybody, I'm saying it's still a damn good method though, with plenty of merit to make it worth learning and using for production climbing.

 

[Lazarus2]

Nice try Blinky. A common argument that has no bio-mechanical merit in our view. And I know quite a lot about footlock technique - I was quite the master at it before it got the better of me. To get the point across at how easy I found it, I'd sing 'O Sole Mio' during demo ascents.

If you want to footlock, fine. But don't try to make out its a bio-mechnically efficent technique - especially for routine access.

I'll save a full education for our classes. But thanks for the great picture; for those interested, if you take another look at it, the pelvis, knees and feet are out of alignment with the upper body. Then all that power is going to be forced through them. Thats just to start with. the ramifications are quite complex.

You're entitled to your opinion.

I just wanted to share ours in this thread too, for others to heed. We don't stand to gain from explaining them - just get embroiled in these nauseating debates wasting our time. We know the risks, and are sharing them for all to heed. We do have a qualified opinion. We'd love to present the evidence in a more scientific way, but that takes a lot of time, and like I say, we don't stand to gain. But one day we or someone else will. And we won't even say 'We told you so'. Because that will be too late and too insensitive for too many, and we know all too well some of the injuries that could be in store for them.

 

[No_Bivy]

climbing puts your body generally out of whack....SRT aint a fix all. I foot lock, SRT sometimes.......but dang, the amount shat some people use is overwhelming. Laz, your entitled to your opinion too. Now be quiet....just kidding. Serious yo, footlocking is good. You set up an srt to go 30 feet?

 

[Blinky]

I didn't realize I was arguing anything other than the idea that footlocking is as obsolete as a rotary phone.

I'm with you on avoiding damage to your body with good technique. I'm not qualified to debate footlocking on scientific merits. If you have data though, pass it on. On practical merit, footlocking just works. We aren't all built the same so what might be great for some is rough on others... that cuts both ways. Spinning on a road bike was the worst thing I ever did to my knees... but it's supposed to be easy on them.

If you want your body in perfect alignment all the time, don't climb things. Even with the best technique and style you bend joints and stretch connective tissue in all sorts of non-ergonomic ways. I bend my body in a lot more strenuous ways trying to keep two hands on a chainsaw than ascending a rope.

Climbing into the tree on a rope takes what, 5 minutes, 10 if you're really taking your time? How much discussion is given to traversing chest high branches with a chainsaw on your hip?

I'm sorry you don't want to get embroiled in a debate but it seems like thats exactly the purpose of your post.

I'm not running down on Tree frog or RADS or whatever method you might prefer, why run down on footlocking as though it was evil or something?

 

[Mark_B.]

Good points, Blinky.

I always find it surprising how heated discussions about access can get. On an average day, how much time do you spend in "access mode"? On average I'll have maybe three or four acscents per day, on a large tree perhaps even less... twice? This is on a normal contracting job, we're not talking about things like cone picking or leaf sampling here – obviously there you would choose different solutions. So, let's assume 30 seconds per ascent, taking it easy... in the end what we're discussing a couple of minutes per work day.

Paolo, don't you agree that a lot of this is down to how you employ techniques? Any technique can hurt you if you over-do it or ignore warning signals your body gives you. I've found that footlocking on very static lines, with Dyneema cores for example, hurts my shoulders. So... I changed over and use lines with a bit more "Boing". I'm not going to argue for or against either ascent techniqe... just let me say after having used this technique (footlocking) for at least ten years on a regular basis I don't feel like I'm coming apart at the seams yet. That's the good news.

Part of the problem about being able to quantify damage is surely that it's difficult to factor in damage caused by prior acitivities. What did this person do before they got into tree work? Was he/ she a really keen cyclist, or a weight lifter or whatever. In my youth I was a competitive swimmer. I think this developed my body in a fairly balanced fashion, swimming is certainly something that's pretty gentle on the body, but again, it's down to how extreme you get.

If you were to ask me what I thought was most damaging in terms of technique we regularly use, I would have said our use of gaffs. My feeling is that after a day of felling spent standing on gaffs you've really put a lot of strain on your hip joints. Long periods of time, high cycles and long levers (your leg). Surely that can't be good news.

But hey, what would I know, I'm just a grunt.

 

[Crazy_Jimmy]

Bucket Truck or just change careers if your that worried about your body.A buddy of mine had double knee replacement from using spikes,maybe you should do some research on there ill effects.When I purchased a new chainsaw it had a warnining on it that using the product could cause cancer in California,Well good I dont live in California.I see alot of older climbers,late thirties,forties even a couple in thier fifties still footlocking why do they avoid the problems from FL?The masters challenge at ITC this year had 4 climbers all 36 and older with probably 60 years combined FL experience-I didnt see any noticiable limps or anything.I footlock when its the best technique for getting in the tree,I tree frog,use ladders,anchored pulleys self belayed,spikes when needeed or just plain ole free climbing in crowded small trees.My point is I use whatever technique is gonna make me most efficient for production for the given tree.I dont get stuck on one particular acsess method. I try to have multiple means of entering a tree and using whats best suited for that tree.Ive seen guys Srt with a tree frog right next to the trunk getting tangled in limbs looking foolish and taking forever.Guy should have just anchored a pulley and walked up the tree and worked it on the way up.I seen another guy anchor a pulley in a 120 oak and struggle to pull him self to the top-probably could have picked and easier method considering he fl 50' in the low 15s.Just learn all the different means of of conopy acsess and use whats appropriate for the given tree.

 

[Lazarus2]

I'll just comment on a few things:

1. Those who don't want to accept footlocking is inefficient, won't accept it. As is patently obvious in this thread. We can lead a horse to water, it is up to the horse whether it sees the good sense to drink.

2. It doesn't matter how effeciently you try to undertake an inefficient technique, it still remains an inefficient technique.

3. We have no other opportunity to change the way we work in a tree, e.g. spurs, work positioning etc. (though we do teach much more efficient ways of undertaking them). But we can make access optimally efficient quite easily.

4. Access is the most stressful part of tree climbing bio-mechanically - having to work hard to cheat gravity until the TIP and a steady swing around on the way down. It doesn't matter how many times you do it in one day, the mind might not remember day after day, but the body definitely does - its how we learn a 'skill'. Hare and tortoise springs to mind.

5. Treework is dominated predominantly by the cheapest bid. As an industry, we have a lot of maturing to do. If our bids are based soley on how quick we can work, then more chainsaw accidents, falls, struck bys and MSD injuries will continue, as we strive to out do the competition, focused predominantly on time.

6. A simple Frog system is NOT gear intensive - two ascenders in tandem, a tether and footloop. Thats it, you're good to go. Nothing any different from footlocking but the footloop. Now lets look at the benefits:

- Increased stretch in the line to absorb a fall should a branch break.
- Instant descent from the ground should bees swarm the climber.
- true security from ascenders being used in the manner they were designed for.
- No opportunity for fall arrest.
- Faster set up than a secured ascender footlock.

Sure footlocking looks cool, but even that isn't as cool as frog walking - whats cooler than seeing someone ascend effortlessly, using their brains for safety and bio-mechanical efficiency?

Thats all I've got the time and inclination for I'm afraid.

PS: I forgot to mention - All the comments about not noticing a problem within yourself, or other people, only serves to highlight the ego of the tree climber assuming he/she has the knowledge and experience to interpret such things appropriately (anything,it seems!)

FWIW, I thought I was fully fit, till I hired a pro for a fitness programme - she did a good job of levelling my ego, I can tell you. Every event we go to, she points out all the typical traits of serious MSDs. About 80% of climbers at one comp I remember.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I didn't mean to say that rotary phones/FL is obsolete, I meant to say that the skill is valuable but there are better ways to accomplish the same task. And everyone moves ahead with technology.

Everytime I do an SRT access, by any means, the people who haven't seen it stop in their tracks and gape. They can see how easy it is to ascend. If it's easy for me at 54 with 30 plus years of climbing imagine how easy it would be for younger climbers. And how much healthier they'll be in the long run.


If speed and cost of equipment are the only criteria, stop the discussion, FL wins every time. But there are many more variables to consider.

"On Rope" has a chart that compares the many ascending systems and gives each criteria points. It would be interesting to do the same for tree access. After reading the first edition of OR back in about 1989 I started my quest for the 'best' tree climbing techniques. I firmly believe that SRT is the way to go. Having the Unicender solves the up and down movements now.

 

[Lazarus2]

[ QUOTE ]
You set up an srt to go 30 feet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and less - its too easy to set up a RADs at that height; Whack a throwline through (no time wasting isolating a branch) pull a line through, tie it off and away you go.

Only need one rope and a really quick changeover if you plan ahead a little.

 

[Blinky]

[ QUOTE ]
[...]

Thats all I've got the time and inclination for I'm afraid.

PS: I forgot to mention - All the comments about not noticing a problem within yourself, or other people, only serves to highlight the ego of the tree climber assuming he/she has the knowledge and experience to interpret such things appropriately (anything,it seems!)

[...]


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, thanks for that. I guess you really are the superior mind here and all of us still clinging to footlocking cuz it looks cool are just a bunch of backward apes.

 

[Mark_B.]

Paolo,

your comments come across as black and white, arrogant and a bit unbalanced.

Put your money where your mouth is and share the basis of these "facts" you push in such an aggressive fashion.

 

[didjon]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were to ask me what I thought was most damaging in terms of technique we regularly use, I would have said our use of gaffs. My feeling is that after a day of felling spent standing on gaffs you've really put a lot of strain on your hip joints. Long periods of time, high cycles and long levers (your leg). Surely that can't be good news.

But hey, what would I know, I'm just a grunt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would second that after all as far as I'm concerned I'm living proof
....
Didj

 

[Lazarus2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[...]

Thats all I've got the time and inclination for I'm afraid.

PS: I forgot to mention - All the comments about not noticing a problem within yourself, or other people, only serves to highlight the ego of the tree climber assuming he/she has the knowledge and experience to interpret such things appropriately (anything,it seems!)

[...]


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, thanks for that. I guess you really are the superior mind here and all of us still clinging to footlocking cuz it looks cool are just a bunch of backward apes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me Blinky (you did read all the paragraph I take it?), my wife is the superior mind when it comes to bio-mechanical efficiency. She has tried to help this industry with me with our limited resources. But you just don't want to hear it. Thats fine. Got the message loud and clear.