Accessing a tree

Hi,

As usual the most innocuous thread leads to the most interesting debates and verbal sparring matches!

Matt P asked for pics and videos of systems in operation. Yesterday I was out in the trees with Laz2 (AKA Beelzebub, to some, I’m sure). Attached U Tube link to video showing him Frog Walking. Simple system, very smooth, very efficient- in my opinion. Apologies for poor quality and UK audio track- had to compress it to post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97KC7OhVZrY

20+ years climbing experience has taught me how little I know. I’ve tried and used various access methods. Out of all of them SRT via Frog is in my opinion the most efficient: my age may bias opinion, because I’ve never been great at foot locking and even using the twin ascenders of d….., as apposed to rope on rope, I was always knackered by the time I got to a work position.

I have no scientific evidence to refute or support the Foot locking is ,’bio mechanically inefficient’ debate. However, I don’t think that anyone would doubt that if you use repetitive motions (sport, work, play, typing posts on TreeBuzz etc ) for long periods of time, inefficiently / poorly it can have long term potentially injurious implications. It would be good to see studies, because we are increasingly witnessing the advent of the long time served ‘career arborist’. In the UK there are massive occupational heath implications between employees and employers, consequently striving to understand the pros and cons of all techniques is an essential requirement for the workers of today and the next generation about to embark upon potentially a 20 year undertaking.


Frank 1
 
Thanks Frank good vid,makes my knee hurt watching.Just wondering in that particular tree would it not have been easier to set an anchored pulley with a self belaying system and work the tree on the way up?You would already have a high tip thru a pulley.Or was this just a demo of the tree frog and the tree wasnt even pruned?I agree the tree frog is great for many applications.Good vid who was that oldtimer in it?
 
I don't even know what bio-mechanical means, but I do think that of all the things that will end a tree-climber's career, footlocking would not be it. I will agree with Laz in that the SRT systems out there can be efficient and easy to set up, etc., but I sure wouldn't pooh-pooh footlocking as the way for uneducated climbers who don't care about their body to ascend a tree. It is safe and fast. With a good throwline, you can be at the top of the tree working in a flash. For those of us who don't build saddles or study bio-mechanical intricacies, we need crews of men and women that can PRODUCE with the tools that we provide them with. There is no way I could or would buy all 7 of our climbers a tree frog system, and we do not share gear.

I am definitely not looking to join in on the fight here, just want to give another view to the folks joining in, and to say that not too many things in this industry are black and white.
 
Jimmy

We were working on getting Frank's Frog system tuned.

I picked that tree because we are so unfit we could drive up to it.
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It was also covered in ivy and had to have the line set against the trunk. Thats what I like about the frog walker - just as easy, simple and efficient to use whether the line is among open, closed branches, against the trunk or in mid air.

On a prune, I only see it as preferable to work a tree up on specific branches. More often on a removal. Even so, pulley or no pulley, I don't want to DdrT up a big tree, however intermittent it might be.

In such cases, I'd use a RAD system with an eddy (can be totally slacked off or used one handed for branch walking, like a friction hitch). Most the time its better all round to walk up the tree with less stress, and work the tree with gravity on the way down. Also no special journeys for hung up brash, just clear as you go.

These two systems save more time and energy and reduce injury. That should equal more production, less time off work and less money on rehab, painkillers etc at the end of the financial year.

If you don't tangle with the rigging, chainsaw, chipper or fall to the ground, should see us through to fitness to enjoy a later life with our grandchildren.
 
Im 36 and I dont think Ive ever had an injury from just climbing.Ive had several injuries from lifting,handsaws,chainsaws,dropping stuff on my toe and host of other things that happen.Maybe our trees are alot smaller or something.I know a climber who footlocks almost every day is 48 years and hasnt missed a day of work in 16 years.(by the way hes a 4 time ttcc champion).
 
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Humans don't fall to bits, they wear out. Excepting disease, this is caused by over use (cycles to failure) or poor technique (not using equipment - the body - in the way it was designed to withstand). Often both.

Jimmy
Some people are genetically gifted to have perfectly balanced physiques and musculature to be extremely resistant to the risks. Others have a very good all round fitness programme that also helps balance the body and reduce the risks.

Maybe you're one of them.

Most though are not, and don't know how to exercise properly, or have the time and energy. Thats when the body starts to list towards negative proprioception and MSDs, due to the rigours of daily repetative tasks.
 
I think we're at the stage where I'm trying to explain whats already been discussed before in detail:

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=50657&an=0&page=0#50657

I'm not about telling people what to do. At all. But I do think fellow professionals should have every opportunity to know potential risks of our undertaking. The rest should come from their own sense of reasoning, as they are the ones who may eventually be faced with consequences of taking those risks.

I think I've covered that now.
 
Paolo,If your over 35 climb trees for a liven and some part of your body don't ache in the morning when you get up your probably dead!!!!!!!

Didj

P.s I'm starting to get repetative eye injury from this constant unproven by anyone who is actually qualified to make these statements Bullsh#t and I mean someone with alot of letters after there name.....

Didj
 
FWIW I footlock when I can isolate both sides of the line clear through the tree with ease and use SRT for awkward throwline isolation trees. Being adaptable is the key. I look forward to learning the frog thing.
 
I agree Totally Paolo that some peoples body are resistent to msds.Or even doing the right stretches and working out specific muscles can counter act damage.I have a friend who runs F,well he started to brake down at a young age.He noticed at marathons hed see runners twice his age still going,in fact he could hardly beat them.After a while his body got so bad he had to quit.Is running bad maybe for some- for him it was.But for those guys twice his age it had know harmful effects.The Dr told my friend that man was aligned alot better to begin with.It wasnt so much the running but my friends body wasnt designed as well.My point is not everyone going to have problems in fact hardly anyone I have ever known has had any problems.Ive really done my homework and talked to alot of 10+ and 20+ year climbers and none have reported any problems.Several guys in there 40s with over 20 + years of footlocking and no problems.A few of them are grandpas,But they all have something in common they take good care of there bodys away from work.I appreciate what your doing Paulo but just be honest about the risk and dont base it all on your experience.
For the record I dont footlock every day and I use many different means of accent>I just think we are kinda beating a dead horse why not focus on so many of the different areas this industry can kill or cripple you that we can actually prove.
 
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... why not focus on so many of the different areas this industry can kill or cripple you that we can actually prove.

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Thats been my focus for about the last 15 years. I teach systems of work, based on safety and efficiency. Health is equal to safety if you want a decent career. I'm talking about footlocking because its relevant to this thread, is not ergonomically efficient and is easily avoided. Safe techniques aren't enough, they need to be ergonmically efficient too.

If you asked me 5 years ago if I had any injuries climbing, I'd have said no. I'm never ill, physically fit, and can always get around a tree no bother. But I wasn't recognising the signs on creeping MSDs. This isn't about my experience Jimmy, I'm just using it as an example that we think we are OK, but don't recognise the signs. We can't see or feel our hearts, but we know we need to look after them - by the time it lets us know there is a problem, it could be too late.

There are exercises that a fitness pro could get you to do, that would point out where imbalance and weakness are setting in. Its all about good posture, balanced strength flexibility and proper technique. I prefer to use techniques that respect those principles from the outset - stacks the balance in my favour. I would recommend anyone else do the same.

Please, instead of asking me, hire the most qualified and experienced fitness pro you can find, and get them to do an all round appraisal. Find out what is relevant to you.

Lets get some work done.
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