A tree climber's union?

I don't necessarily agree about taxes. The argument is much more complicated than that. Look at Kansas where taxes were cut to the extreme. Is their economy thriving? Hell no. Look at most Scandanavian countries, they pay close to 50% in taxes, economies are (mostly) thriving, they have universal healthcare, college paid for, long maternity and paternity leave. Think of how much of your work is paid for either directly or indirectly through taxes. Personally, it's a fairly large percentage. I have contracts with city, county and state funded agencies, I do work for government employees as well as people on some form of government assistance. I devote entire months to work on single farms and ranches, which they can afford through government subsidies in the farm bill. We are stuck in a unique position of paying enough in taxes that it hurts, but not enough that the benefits are visible to most people.
As far as communism and unions as was mentioned earlier, they suffer from the same fatal flaw that capitalism does. Humanities greed. In a perfect world, all these systems work, well, perfectly. Pure capitalism fails the test just as pure communism does. But ponder this, when you inject capitalism into communism you tend to have a negative result, black markets which bring out the very worst aspects of capitalism. When you inject communism or socialism (two entirely different things which we will not get into here) into capitalism you tend to get positive things like social programs.
 
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Not saying that taxes aren't needed. Just saying that if so much weren't given to special interests, against the will of many, then there might be enough to cover what's needed, without raising the percentage more and more and more and more...
 
TreeLogic said:
I think Kevin meant that arborists wont be sent overseas, as business owners do with their companies these days.

See, the cost of doing business in America is too expensive for many businesses to survive because they have to pay so much money in taxes. This incredible amount of taxes wouldn't be so bad if we only had to pay taxes on stuff everyone needed but unfortunately much of the money goes to special interests.
Click to expand...

It's not that it's too expensive for them to survive. It's about being able to generate shareholder value continuously. There's the problem.
 
As a due paying member of a union, IATSE Local 416, and a union scab/freelancer, I can tell you that generally unions suck and I am glad there isn't one in this industry. They're generally of little help, actually stifle wage increases, and create an awkwardness/hurdle between employee and employer. I don't feel like membership helps me in any way except for compliance. I make better $ and get to do cooler stuff when I freelance, without the drama.

Let's say a given job pays $300/ day, as a sub if I can come in and jam it out in 4-6 hrs then I made good $. But if I'm on a union gig they'll make me take breaks and milk it out for the full 8 hrs, plus I gotta pay dues on that income, whether I'm a member or not.

No, TreeCo was right, just say no to unions. The fair market will balance itself out, when an employer really gets sick of losing good people they will raise wages and bennies and also rates, eventually lifting all the bottom lines to a point of sustainability.

Better than unionize the good guys would be to find a way to eliminate the low-ball hacks, increase consumer awareness, etc.
 
I would like to see the ISA and TCIA get serious about public education and for our industry to move towards a trade based training cycle, i.e. The journeyman/apprentice model.
I can't help but chuckle when I hear the term fair market. Everyone has a different idea of what that is. In reality there, is no such thing as a fair market or a meritocracy. It's a helpful fallacy for many people. It gives the plebeian something to aspire to and the patrician a justification for their wealth and power. Everyone is handed something at some point in time. The bootstrap bullshit is a myth.
I'll use myself as an example. I own a small tree service. We've been in business just over two years and have been very successful. Last month we grossed 50% of what we grossed our first year. I work my ass off, most weeks, when bids and maintenance and book work are included I probably work 80-90 hours. We finally hired an employee, but if anything, it has increased my workload. This company has been built on my back, my blood, sweat and tears. That being said, we wouldn't be where we are without investment at crucial times by my parents. They bought us a truck last year when we couldn't afford one. They paid for my first climbing saw, my ISA cert. They have used their connections to help me get my foot in the door with many of our clients. That is the most visible example I can use of outside help, but I have so many other clients and friends who have had a hand in the success of our business. Claiming all the credit for myself feels good, but it's untrue.
No one seems to be a fan of regulation but I think it can be useful. I look at commercial salmon fisherman (from the standpoint of having done it for several years) and know that as bitterly as they complain about regulation, if there were none, they would quickly (and unintentionally) fish themselves out of a job. Everybody would fudge their catch just a tiny bit, but that tiny bit from everyone would make an enormous impact on the fishery. Actual legal minimum standards would be great (like code for contractors). Nobody would tell their contractor, "How about making the studs in that load bearing wall 30" apart." The contractor would walk off the job. Regulation can be a pain but it can also help. As with anything, it's about balance.
 
If a Union could work it would be in portland, I could see it being beneficial and also a marketing tool for the employer. However what if there was some sort of Co-op model where individual employees and employers could by into. This could also be used to self insure for liability and workman's comp for the co-op members. There could be voluntary benefits to employees who choose to join, such as dental insurance, or perhaps discounted ISA certs, dues, and conferences. Perhaps employers could pay the employees dues into the co-op as a job benefit, which would be much like an employer paying for the ISA certs.. Extra funds could be available on a scholarship model, or even a fund to help injured workers and their families...

I know that this is a pipe dream...
 
I do think the word union has negative connotations. But the truth is it just means that people who work in the same proffession get together and make sure they are not taken advantage of. That just seems to make sense to me. The problem is that tree work is not seen as a real or True proffession but rather something people do when they lose their factory jobs and need to make a buck.
 
It is very interesting to see what kind of person does line work here in michigan where it is unionized and in down south where it is not unionized. I personally know of several unionized line workers on tree buzz. Are there any non unionized line clearance guys on treebuzz? I sort of doubt it as they make like $11 an hour, are expendible, work ridiculous hours...
Maybe that's a false impression. It could be way off base
 
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I would like someone to talk about the non union line workers. My stereotype is that union workers get paid well and take 8 hours to do a 2 hour job. And the non union guys get paid nothing and work like dogs it seems like both systems keep the lights on.
 
We have a huge Boeing factory here where the fuselage of the Dreamliner is made. No union. You'll always hear complaints here and there from disgruntled workers. Usually they seem to think a job is a democracy and even their coworkers are sick of them dragging down morale.

But most of what I've heard around here is "not getting enough overtime" or they've "been working too much overtime." Not many have complained about the pay because the whole overtime thing seems to be voluntary to an extent. I've heard more about how awesome the facility is than anything.
 
When I worked at the New York Botanical Garden it was all union for the grounds crew, including the arb crew. All I can say about the union is that it had benefited most workers by providing benefits, but the union cronies who I worked amongst were the most corrupt and awful human beings I have ever seen. Laziest, meanest, dirtiest, horrible, horrible. Everything was "beyond" their job description. Unions coddle and corrupt the weak.
 
Sounds like a union disperses both the good and the bad. As opposed to all the money and the meanness in the hands of one it's spread out
 
When I was in the union we all worked consistently. We had our jobs to do and we got them done. Nobody was racing but, they certainly weren't slacking. What I did find annoying was the beginning and end of the day. Punching that clock to the second seemed to have been a big thing. Mind you we were a small shop isolated from the larger body of the membership, there were only a couple of people in each trade and many of us lived together. I think this helped to avoid some of the worst of the union environment. Working alongside the owners of the framing carpentry business we took all our breaks and packed up after an 8 hr day. We worked hard but again didn't get crazy about it.

To my mind, it all about respecting each other and the needs of the job. If either has a crappy attitude toward the other then things get ugly.
 
I can see how it could work, although my point is that it can tend to corrupt people. Tree work is hard, active work. Union mandates, perks, posts and proscriptions are fine for municipalities and botanical gardens, but they may not work at the level of the small business operation, which is what in fact most tree services are. Where mere experience is key to power in the union system, tree workers in small businesses have to earn their keep through productivity. Different cultures, quite honestly.

Jon, this is why I am suggesting that we all do some thinking about new business models--models of employee ownership (thanks, Hump!)--that kind of thing. The union model is better suited to the rust belt manufacturers and large municipalities. It can't be the missing social safety net for tree workers.

"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the Union bind them!"
 
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What leads to unions gaining a foothold is disgruntled workers. Because an employer is small should not give them the sense they are exempt from labor laws set to establish fair work practices.
 
Public education aside, I think it's accurate to say the price of tree work has risen with inflation-why haven't wages?
Again, as just a pup, I am operating on second hand info here. I don't have the experience to confirm this.
What choice does a young upwardly mobile climbing man have but to eventually go out on his own, along with everyone else, and fight over scraps? Other than sub.
I think you know what I mean, Chris-I believe you were confronted with this same choice earlier in your career. I do agree with and am open to the shared ownership or co op model. Aren't there at least a couple of these in and around portland already? Any info on how it works out? Spiral Tree or something like that?
 
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