A tree climber's union?

May another young head enter the discussion? Working closely with the owner of our company, I've seen the struggle and agree with some who have already stated that the real issue is awareness and appreciation. The school in my town had the first urban forestry program in the nation, yet our community is still largely ignorant about proper investment into their trees, a valuable portion of their property. I've thought of many ideas to spread awareness, and have come to the conclusion that associations like CAA in Charlotte are the way to go. Get the arborists in an area who are committed to safe, proper tree care and form an entity that engages with the community to educate the public. Then a non-profit entity can speak in schools, hold events in town, volunteer, etc. I think the public more readily receives from a group not directly vying for their wallets, which increases awareness, hopefully boosting the market, and, in the end, our income. Thoughts? Is anyone here involved in something like this that can chime in and tell us if this ideal is truly what they've seen happen?
 
JontreeHI said:
Sure adkpk, but wouldn't this be a good thing? Assuming those not in the union--because why wouldn't you want to be, as a climber--are the uninsured, uninformed, and unsafe types that are not representing the industry well.
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Ok wake up a little and come back with that one. What?

Might be hard to find a plumber or an electrician... but not really and if your looking for someone to do construction on your house do you ask for union credentials?

Union arborist would be doing line clearance, parks etc... but homeowners would NOT be checking union cards. Frankly the opposite and then some.
 
to me the idea of unions makes total and complete sense, so does communism, both however do not work in the real world. from what I see in every unionized trade around me is lazy incompetent workers that are way over paid and cannot be fired or laid off. there was a large lumber mill in a town about an hour north west, we had the tree removal/pruning contract in this town for 3 years, every time we drove by this mill for about 9 months there were striking union members walking outside the front gate. then one day they went back to work, this lasted for 3 weeks until all of the logs in the yard were gone. then the mill closed down. that was 3.5 years ago. the employees closed down this business which supported most of the town. to this day they're still striking, as long as at least 1 person is still outside the front gate every union member who was employed there still gets a full paycheque.

this is exactly why jobs are going over seas to where unions are less prevalent. good hard working employees are either promoted to management so they aren't in the union or they are corrupted by the union members. if contractors want to work on unionized job sites they have to be members of the union even if they're only one man operations. I have a friend who runs a boom truck service had to join the union a few years ago now he has to pay the union $15 an hour every hour he works even if he's not working on union jobs.

unions had they're day, but its long past with organizations like osha, the ministry of labour, and other labour boards creating rules and laws that employers can be taken to court and maybe jail over there is no need for unions.
 
You're right. I guess I'm thinking of union membership as a further credential, which it isn't automatically.
But could it be? Could it be what the Certified Arborist, and other, credentials are meant to be? A commitment to safe a proper work practices, but backed up in some with enforcement, so that those that do not are not?
True what everyone is saying-so much of this will be reliant on better awareness and education of the gen public.
I guess maybe I just would want to see something similar to the organizations in place now, but with follow through.
If you are professional and theoretically worth hiring, this is how you work.
If you don't work like this, then maybe you aren't a professional.--of course not directed at you, adkpk, just generalizing, but I think you can see what I mean.
 
JontreeHI said:
Aren't humans strange?
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Very. Often wonder how we made it this far. lol

And I would like to add; I am all for protecting such a dangerous job as you guys have (for sure a need for more protection) but don't think unions are an answer because it's not a perfect world. To humans anyway and humans make it messed up for everything else.
 
We are moving in that direction and need to keep going. As the younger climbers have come into the role of management and ownership we're seeing greater adoption of the rules because they see the value in it. There are still plenty of old school people around that think they still operate and exist in a vacuum. We are moving in the right direction.

James, while its true we have osha, MoL, Labor boards, and rules as such, they owe much of their existence and legislation to unions and their efforts to see workers represented on a more equal footing with business owners. This has come about due not just direct action but political action. Have they outlived their usefulness? As they have evolved I'd say yes. Is that the direction we as an industry should go? No, and that's why I place us in the realm of professionals, akin is structure to lawyers, accountants and doctors. While we don't make as much it's certainly a better representation.
 
A couple (but not all) my thoughts on an Arboriculture union:
- never liked the idea as an employee
- don't like the idea as an employer
- $1-$2/hr in dues is a tax paid by worker->employer->customers->market (in a 30 year career total = $124,800 @$2/hr)
- corrupts the members (CIP - friend of mine went to HOne, great climber, competed well at OTCCs, he and I hammered trees out/down for 4 years together, as a Journeyman makes $40+/hr, claims there is an 18 tree quota, is able to get his quota done by 11am, REDUCES his performance daily; why? "why should i work any harder when the guy beside me in my truck makes the same $/hr as me and barely makes quota?" - there is NO incentive for him to perform to his calibre and ability)
- creates polarized relationships
- protection for the lazy
- protection for the manipulators (CIP - teacher friend of my wife and I; working for 3-4 years filling long term illness, maternity leave etc, trying to get in the door, for '13-'14 season filled the void for a male teacher on paid leave for some barely legit reason, lost her position for fall semester cause hes coming back, he will return to fill just enough hours to fulfill the minimum for his next paid leave, he also times these return/departures so he gets his summers off paid, has done this on cycles for over 10 years, SCUMBAG as far as I'm concerned)
- worked for a non-unionized painter in college, builder had 6+ sales offices burnt to the ground, lit up by unions because the builder focused on non-unionized contractors, how is this even remotely ethical?
- if companies were pulling 20%+ profits annually, then a discussion about fairness would be in order, but Arboriculture is a LABOUR industry, there's no margin in labour, every wealth management book I've read says steer clear of labour, Davey had a net margin of 3.6% in 2012, Microsoft had a 26% net margin (I try to educate my team on these discoveries, I wish more guys in the trenches were aware of the numbers)(generation ME is going to have hard time coming to grips with the choice to pursue Arborculture and attempt to live the lifestyle of their knowledge worker colleagues)(consider climber wages 60 years ago in relation to cost of living ratios, I've briefly looked and their shockingly consistent - we're blue collar!)
- a union desires control via a tight grip on genitalia (the employer or the market)
- why doesnt Honda require a union in Alliston Ontario, the CAW has aggressively tried for 3 decades and the workers supply the answer - no
- concurrently, why does the CAW and other large unions push so hard for membership? methinks the answer is lies in their objective - money - they wish to protect workers from unfair portions of income in light of net margin - yet they've morphed into what they battle against, a corporate entity focused on the Profit & Loss statement

Just few of my thoughts, not all, and not absolute
 
JontreeHI said:
You're right. I guess I'm thinking of union membership as a further credential, which it isn't automatically.
But could it be? Could it be what the Certified Arborist, and other, credentials are meant to be? A commitment to safe a proper work practices, but backed up in some with enforcement, so that those that do not are not?
True what everyone is saying-so much of this will be reliant on better awareness and education of the gen public.
I guess maybe I just would want to see something similar to the organizations in place now, but with follow through.
If you are professional and theoretically worth hiring, this is how you work.
If you don't work like this, then maybe you aren't a professional.--of course not directed at you, adkpk, just generalizing, but I think you can see what I mean.
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What you're describing is a professional association or society. This is what ISA is or at least should be aspiring to. Take a look at professional engineers, Certified Professional Accountants, etc… they govern their industry through their certification programs and more importantly by codes of ethics and professional conduct.

Honda's business model in Alliston is pretty revolutionary and goes to what employees are seeking in their workplaces. That's why they have kept the CAW out. They are the exception to the rule. If more businesses thought like this then unions never would've gained a foothold.
 
That is what sucks about America. We have so much in our constitution and still we expect everything to fall in our laps.

You have a great organization working for you, the ISA, go knock on their door for answers. They are willing to help make tree climbing safer for you guys, use it to your advantage.

I didn't want to get into it but Mangoes is so right about inviting the wrong crowd with going with unions. Unions make America weak. Workers need protection but have unions been the answer?

If you think your employer is taking advantage of you or putting you in harms way, hell post it on you tube of facebook.
 
Well said, Bob! I would double-like that post if I could. But alas, all I can find is "Unlike". Which begs the question; where was the the "Unlike" on the posts where I really needed it? :)
 
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While I am not necessarily a fan of unions currently (I find them to be bloated, uncompromising bureaucracies) before everyone gets all union bashing crazy I think it's important to look at the history of unions and labor. None of us would have any sort of say in our wages or safety without early unions. Conditions for labor were horrendous, death was common, pay was nearly nonexistent and often, there was some sort of indentured servitude, whether it was company housing or the company store. We owe our rights as workers to those courageous individuals who organized the first unions and stood up to the robber barons often under threat of imprisonment and death.
Have unions fallen off the path they began on? Yes. Would I want to live and work in a country where they had never existed? No.
 
So it sounds like the consensus is that unions have served their purpose and aren't really relevant any more. I guess it boils down to the same old issues-enforcement of ethical and safe work practices, and public education.
So how can we work with the organizations already in place so that ultimately there is more pie for us all to have more of?
Kevin-what do you mean overseas-like war? The international traveling climber sounds like a sweet lifestyle, but definitely no bullets
 
I think Kevin meant that arborists wont be sent overseas, as business owners do with their companies these days.

See, the cost of doing business in America is too expensive for many businesses to survive because they have to pay so much money in taxes. This incredible amount of taxes wouldn't be so bad if we only had to pay taxes on stuff everyone needed but unfortunately much of the money goes to special interests.
 
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