A good day to stay alive

Erik, how many discussions have we had here about someone making a cut from a maxed out bucket and getting lucky. Only to be told how much skill and calculation was involved and that you dont improve if you dont push the limits.
How long have you been around? They've been calling me lucky since 2009.... over and over and over again... I just keep getting lucky... that's the only explanation they can come up with... Otherwise they might have to admit that they just suck!
 
There was another factor involved... INTUITION...

I did stop and access the situation, for a good while before deciding to make that cut. I could feel everything about that job was in the flow. The gentlest of winds parting the two trees after I had thought no more pull was the final sign that all was well.. So intuition was actually the deciding factor... and look at what's come out of it.... so much to learn... That's what I seek... What can I learn for next time???
 
How large was the interlocked limb? Tulip poplar limbs aren't overly strong. Could you have used a big shot/APTA to isolate that limb and break it out with the tag line, eliminating the need to pull the tree once it was out?



Was the tag line below the cut still tight after the top was out? Or did it go slack after the head weight was off?


As for a safer option with the truck. Perhaps a lower cut allowing the truck to be further away. Notch and plunge your back cut and then trip the trigger with a power pruner while ready to move away. I would think utilizing some side reach would then make rotating your fastest escape. Especially with a 10-15' head start by using the power pruner.
 
How large was the interlocked limb? Tulip poplar limbs aren't overly strong. Could you have used a big shot/APTA to isolate that limb and break it out with the tag line, eliminating the need to pull the tree once it was out?



Was the tag line below the cut still tight after the top was out? Or did it go slack after the head weight was off?


As for a safer option with the truck. Perhaps a lower cut allowing the truck to be further away. Notch and plunge your back cut and then trip the trigger with a power pruner while ready to move away. I would think utilizing some side reach would then make rotating your fastest escape. Especially with a 10-15' head start by using the power pruner.
There was a power pruner on site... I cold have used it if I had known. That definitely would have provided an extra distance and margin of safety. It could have easily been used at the cut that was made. Certainly another factor to consider in the future.
 
Something to think about... I'm pretty sure I've used the strategy before but don't remember the specifics. Don't make the assumption that the tagline was overloaded though... I just don't know what it took to get that tree to move because I didn't hand check the line for tautness. On the other hand I did make the decision that I wasn't going to put any more force on it before I made the cut and then a little breeze came along and parted the branches. So just from watching how the tree moved I was thinking "no more on this tree".

Is overloaded even a proper term in this context. How do you define "overloaded"... Overloaded for what the tree can safely handle? Or overloaded from the safe working load of the line? is that 10 or 20 percent? And how do we ever really know what the force is being put on a line or how much a tree can handle. It's all a judgment call.

If you want to have an intelligent conversation about tree work, then we need to define our terms. So please define overloaded. If you're looking for slander then terms like overloaded and mediocre will do just fine....

And for your perusal, I just found and posted this video circa 2009...
In this case I would define “ overloaded“ as having too much tension for the task.
 
40 years of blowing tops and you've never done it.. It was outside yours.

If I had to do it over again, with the insight gained, I would make this cut 10 out of 10 times...
There is a reason that I have never taken a top above a loaded up tagline. It is, for various reasons, a really bad idea.
 
Last edited:
How long have you been around? They've been calling me lucky since 2009.... over and over and over again... I just keep getting lucky... that's the only explanation they can come up with... Otherwise they might have to admit that they just suck!
Based on the title of this thread, and your description of the events, any rational human being would come to the rightful conclusion that on this day you were extremely LUCKY.
 
  • Like
Reactions: evo
When Mark and I talked about the concept of Treebuzz back in 2001 we wanted to make it sorta like Cheers or a neighborhood bar. Pretty tolerant but still boxed ears once in a while. This has worked pretty well but social media, which TreeBuzz.com is part of, has changed since '01

As much as I dislike parenting adult adolescents its part of my responsibility. Nudging behaviors or tossing patrons out the door is needed once in a while. Bickering and ankle biting sure should be left back on the third grade playground. Stop it. Be ready for a bit more iron fist moderation. If I'm inclined there may be a bit of retro iron fisting too.

Anyone who wants to bicker and ankle bite can take it to a Conversation which is the TreeBuzz.com version of a DM...use it.
 
In this case I would define “ overloaded“ as having too much tension for the task.
I think we need a better definition. That's pretty ambiguous... The task was to separate the trees... when I cut the tree the limbs were about a foot apart... I could have backed off the pull so they were only 6" apart, so by your definition, that was too much tension for the task.

Hypothetically, when we pull a tree over, if we only need 500 lbs of force on the rope, but we use 600 lbs, then we have applied to much for the task...

IN this situation overloading relates to the ability of the tree to withstand the forces generated and /or the effect the rope might have on the push back. I think we can all agree that tree would have made some kind of cracking or popping sound before it failed. I would have stopped immediately if I had heard anything. And I was calling for one foot of travel at a time. Then waiting for a few seconds as I looked up to access the touching limbs. SO there was a margin for safety in that approach.
There is a reason that I have never taken a top above a loaded up tagline. It is, for various reasons, a really bad idea.
Please explain... why is it a bad idea? what are the "various reasons" you speak of?

How large was the interlocked limb? Tulip poplar limbs aren't overly strong. Could you have used a big shot/APTA to isolate that limb and break it out with the tag line, eliminating the need to pull the tree once it was out?
Was the tag line below the cut still tight after the top was out? Or did it go slack after the head weight was off?
I like the way you think.. very creative, which is a great way to solve problems in this biz. Using the big shot to break limbs would have been impractical. Tight shot, too many lower limbs interfering. Limbs were too high for a clean shot even with the big shot, and they would have supported each other at the tips, which given their size would make them very difficult to break.

I have ripped dead limbs and dead tops out of trees to make then fit the drop zone... an excellent strategy for trees that are too dead to climb.

I'm pretty sure the line was still tight after the top blew...
 
1. Launching a 50-60 ft top with a tight tagline below your cut? Do I really need to explain why this is a bad idea, and do you really need to continue defending the indefensible? You had some lapses in judgment, errors in execution, and got lucky on this one. We have all been there buddy, so it might be time to own it, learn what you can, and move on.
 
Simple when the top separates from hinge that energy needs to go somewhere. When the tree is being held by truck the only place for the pushback to go is backwards. The tree would usually absorb this by a backward motion. Hence why big tops make climber go back and forth after top has left the stump.
 
Probably not greatest explanation, but that is the basic physics of the scenario. The truck had the tree pulled tight so it could not absorb the pushback of top leaving the tree when hinge broke. The shallow notch created even more pushback.....
 
Just to add when taking a top as it starts to go there is an initial moment of forward movement. More so with a head leaner. (Pre loaded with a fucken truck). As the top rotation occurs this energy is transferred to pushing the stem back.
Loading the line like a rubber band if tied below the top.
Those forces on a shitty wood like tulip, likely contributed to the hinge breaking ear

I’m curious if @Daniel used his go to arbor plex or true blue.
 
#2. Doing so doesn’t allow the natural pushback and rebound process to happen, which as you learned, can bring a large amount of unpredictability and added danger. Do I really need to continue?
 
1. Launching a 50-60 ft top with a tight tagline below your cut? Do I really need to explain why this is a bad idea, and do you really need to continue defending the indefensible? You had some lapses in judgment, errors in execution, and got lucky on this one. We have all been there buddy, so it might be time to own it, learn what you can, and move on.
I honestly wouldn't be asking if I didn't want an answer..

If the tree is getting pulled to 6 o'clock with the tag line, and the tree was being felled to 9 o'clock, the push back would be to 3 o'clock, and the tag line would be perpendicular to the direction of fall, and I would think the tag line wouldn't have much effect, either counter or for the push back.

If the tag line is pilling to 3 o'clock and the the fall is to 9 and therefore the push back is to 3, I would think that the by pre-loading the tree to 3, the push back would be reduced because the "stretch" has been taken out of the system. The thinking there being that the truck is going to put a lot more force on the tree than the push back, and therefore the tree will already be pulled back to the point where it doesn't have a lot more room to move.

On the other hand , that may not be correct because the force of the push back would add to the force of the pull line and maybe the movement back would be greater with the total force, even with the spring-loaded effect.

#2. Doing so doesn’t allow the natural pushback and rebound process to happen, which as you learned, can bring a large amount of unpredictability and added danger. Do I really need to continue?
There is no such thing as unpredictability in tree work. Ever tree that has ever been cut obeys the laws of physics perfectly. These immutable laws offer complete predictability if one understands them. What you call unpredictability is simply a lack of knowledge.

Dent stopped teaching the swing Dutchman because he found it too "unpredictable" to teach. I have found that sometimes the hinges hold well and sometimes they blow up in an instant and the tree is lost to the side weight. Rather than give up and say it's too "unpredictable", I try to figure it out. Why does it work on this tree and fail on that... There are a lot of factors at play. I may not ever get all the factors dialed in, but at least I'm trying and experimenting and watching videos in slow motion to try to understand. I feel very comfortable using the cut in low risk scenarios.

And that's why I wish I had the POV video of this tulip top. It would be a great piece of info to learn and teach from. I AM still waiting to get my hands on the video of the top going that was taken from the ground. Everything is moving so fast from what I did see that it really needs to be slowed and carefully analyzed. Even then it's a bad camera angle.

One of the things I'm trying to understand is why did the top come back at the bucket. I thought I was originally was falling the top perpendicular to the path of the bucket. When got up there I changed the direction of the lay slightly, maybe 10-5 degrees. Certainly not enough to get the push back to move directly towards the bucket. The only thing I can think of that may have chnaged the direction of the push back was another lower limb on the interfering tulip. Once the branch of the two had cleared, there was a fork in the limb on the other tulip and this lower wing of that limb was clearly going to get brushed. I knew it wasn't going to be able to stop the top, but it may have deflected the angle of the top's fall enough to change the direction of the push back.

If that is possible and I think that's what happened here, I'm guessing you would have seen it somewhere along the way during your 40 years of blowing tops.. Have you?
 
I've seen the spindliest tiny branch hook an adjacent tree and become an unexpected tag line. You'd think the little bugger would just break, but no, it wreaks its havoc. In the early stage of a fell small force can guide alot, setting trajectory. At times unfortunately. Check the video. fwiw
 

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom