A good day to stay alive

[rico]

I honestly wouldn't be asking if I didn't want an answer..

If the tree is getting pulled to 6 o'clock with the tag line, and the tree was being felled to 9 o'clock, the push back would be to 3 o'clock, and the tag line would be perpendicular to the direction of fall, and I would think the tag line wouldn't have much effect, either counter or for the push back.

If the tag line is pilling to 3 o'clock and the the fall is to 9 and therefore the push back is to 3, I would think that the by pre-loading the tree to 3, the push back would be reduced because the "stretch" has been taken out of the system. The thinking there being that the truck is going to put a lot more force on the tree than the push back, and therefore the tree will already be pulled back to the point where it doesn't have a lot more room to move.

On the other hand , that may not be correct because the force of the push back would add to the force of the pull line and maybe the movement back would be greater with the total force, even with the spring-loaded effect.


There is no such thing as unpredictability in tree work. Ever tree that has ever been cut obeys the laws of physics perfectly. These immutable laws offer complete predictability if one understands them. What you call unpredictability is simply a lack of knowledge.

Dent stopped teaching the swing Dutchman because he found it too "unpredictable" to teach. I have found that sometimes the hinges hold well and sometimes they blow up in an instant and the tree is lost to the side weight. Rather than give up and say it's too "unpredictable", I try to figure it out. Why does it work on this tree and fail on that... There are a lot of factors at play. I may not ever get all the factors dialed in, but at least I'm trying and experimenting and watching videos in slow motion to try to understand. I feel very comfortable using the cut in low risk scenarios.

And that's why I wish I had the POV video of this tulip top. It would be a great piece of info to learn and teach from. I AM still waiting to get my hands on the video of the top going that was taken from the ground. Everything is moving so fast from what I did see that it really needs to be slowed and carefully analyzed. Even then it's a bad camera angle.

One of the things I'm trying to understand is why did the top come back at the bucket. I thought I was originally was falling the top perpendicular to the path of the bucket. When got up there I changed the direction of the lay slightly, maybe 10-5 degrees. Certainly not enough to get the push back to move directly towards the bucket. The only thing I can think of that may have chnaged the direction of the push back was another lower limb on the interfering tulip. Once the branch of the two had cleared, there was a fork in the limb on the other tulip and this lower wing of that limb was clearly going to get brushed. I knew it wasn't going to be able to stop the top, but it may have deflected the angle of the top's fall enough to change the direction of the push back.

If that is possible and I think that's what happened here, I'm guessing you would have seen it somewhere along the way during your 40 years of blowing tops.. Have you?

Unpredictability is at the heart of this thread Daniel. Add in the fact that you didn’t have an understanding of the forces at play and you ended up with the top coming at you and your bucket like a heat seeking missile..

I am also curious as to why you only use a swing Dutchman in low risk situations? Might it have something to do with the fact that it is a notoriously unpredictable cut prone to inconsistent outcomes? Enlighten us Mr. Miyagi!

Since I can’t make heads or tails of your first couple paragraphs please answer me this. If your tops intended lay was at 12 o’clock, which direction were you pulling on the tagline?

 

[evo]

I honestly wouldn't be asking if I didn't want an answer..

If the tree is getting pulled to 6 o'clock with the tag line, and the tree was being felled to 9 o'clock, the push back would be to 3 o'clock, and the tag line would be perpendicular to the direction of fall, and I would think the tag line wouldn't have much effect, either counter or for the push back.

If the tag line is pilling to 3 o'clock and the the fall is to 9 and therefore the push back is to 3, I would think that the by pre-loading the tree to 3, the push back would be reduced because the "stretch" has been taken out of the system. The thinking there being that the truck is going to put a lot more force on the tree than the push back, and therefore the tree will already be pulled back to the point where it doesn't have a lot more room to move.

On the other hand , that may not be correct because the force of the push back would add to the force of the pull line and maybe the movement back would be greater with the total force, even with the spring-loaded effect.


There is no such thing as unpredictability in tree work. Ever tree that has ever been cut obeys the laws of physics perfectly. These immutable laws offer complete predictability if one understands them. What you call unpredictability is simply a lack of knowledge.

Dent stopped teaching the swing Dutchman because he found it too "unpredictable" to teach. I have found that sometimes the hinges hold well and sometimes they blow up in an instant and the tree is lost to the side weight. Rather than give up and say it's too "unpredictable", I try to figure it out. Why does it work on this tree and fail on that... There are a lot of factors at play. I may not ever get all the factors dialed in, but at least I'm trying and experimenting and watching videos in slow motion to try to understand. I feel very comfortable using the cut in low risk scenarios.

And that's why I wish I had the POV video of this tulip top. It would be a great piece of info to learn and teach from. I AM still waiting to get my hands on the video of the top going that was taken from the ground. Everything is moving so fast from what I did see that it really needs to be slowed and carefully analyzed. Even then it's a bad camera angle.

One of the things I'm trying to understand is why did the top come back at the bucket. I thought I was originally was falling the top perpendicular to the path of the bucket. When got up there I changed the direction of the lay slightly, maybe 10-5 degrees. Certainly not enough to get the push back to move directly towards the bucket. The only thing I can think of that may have chnaged the direction of the push back was another lower limb on the interfering tulip. Once the branch of the two had cleared, there was a fork in the limb on the other tulip and this lower wing of that limb was clearly going to get brushed. I knew it wasn't going to be able to stop the top, but it may have deflected the angle of the top's fall enough to change the direction of the push back.

If that is possible and I think that's what happened here, I'm guessing you would have seen it somewhere along the way during your 40 years of blowing tops.. Have you?

Are you now saying you make a swinging dutchy on this top?
For shit sakes!

 

[evo]

The landscaper had a nice double braided bull line, maybe 5/8 or 3/4"....

my go to is true blue.. did I ever mention arbor plex? I haven't owned a piece of arborplex in probably 20 years... maybe 30..

I cant keep track of what your kit is, nor do I care.

Add another strike to the list using a landscapers rope. What in the hell is a landscaper doing with a 5/8ths / 3/4 line? I assume it was his truck and him behind the wheel?

Good grief

 

[owScott]

Daniel, I spent some time really reading your OP and trying to really understand what happened. The direction of pull on the tagline was perpendicular to the direction you were to fell the top, therefore the tagline was also perpendicular to the direction of pushback. 2 things happened here that we are trying to a explain. 1 why the tree pushed back 90 degrees from the direction you were falling the top, toward the bucket. 2 why the butt seems to have left the cut late causing it come close to the bucket. Couple hypothosis. On the 1 question maybe the top wasnt straight and curved in a few spots making the direction of the intended lie hard to judge therefore trajector not as planned. Seen this happen felling tall forest trees. On the 2nd question. Maybe starting the back cut and hestitaing maybe the tree was pushing back and too much holding wood made the butt remain attached kinda opposite of what you call throwing a top, more like pulling a top with the push back then releasing at the wrong time. One more thought. The tagline being perpendicular to direction of pushback would the pushback move in an arc, not directly away from the direction of intend top direction. Meaning wouldnt the tag line alter the direction of the pushback? If I am not understanding the senerio explain where so I can get a clear understanding.

 

[owScott]

Here is another thought. How about a tag in the just the top no tension. Make a face cut and partial back cut. Pull the bucket back and pull the top. Surely that sized top would break the limb locked together. Obviuoly some damage to the other tree could occur so I am not sure if that was exceptable. Flip side is if the tree failed pulling on it there would have been damage.

 

[owScott]

Unpredictability is at the heart of this thread Daniel. Add in the fact that you didn’t have an understanding of the forces at play and you ended up with the top coming at you and your bucket like a heat seeking missile..

I am also curious as to why you only use a swing Dutchman in low risk situations? Might it have something to do with the fact that it is a notoriously unpredictable cut prone to inconsistent outcomes? Enlighten us Mr. Miyagi!

Since I can’t make heads or tails of your first couple paragraphs please answer me this. If your tops intended lay was at 12 o’clock, which direction were you pulling on the tagline?

If the lay was 12 oclock the pull on the tag would be 9 oclock. Thinking on that the tag being perpendicular to the pushback wouldnt that cause the push back to move in an arc? Anchor a piece of string attach a pencil at 12" pull the string tight. If you move the pencil keeping the string tight in moves in a radius. In this case possibly pulling the butt toward the bucket. Also generally when in a critical cut it can be important to stay in the cut until you get to your intendened hinge holding wood, pressure builds up and things can get unpredictable.

 

[Daniel]

Here is another thought. How about a tag in the just the top no tension. Make a face cut and partial back cut. Pull the bucket back and pull the top. Surely that sized top would break the limb locked together. Obviuoly some damage to the other tree could occur so I am not sure if that was exceptable. Flip side is if the tree failed pulling on it there would have been damage.

I like the way you think.. that would be a cripple and pull scenario and certainly a good way to mitigate risk. I've used it on many tops.. some of those are in videos listed earlier in this thread. This wasn't a good scenario for that cut... coming down in the bucket would have put me very close to under a compromised huge top that could have broken out in a gust of wind... setting up the pull line would have been an issue as well.

Daniel, I spent some time really reading your OP and trying to really understand what happened. The direction of pull on the tagline was perpendicular to the direction you were to fell the top, therefore the tagline was also perpendicular to the direction of pushback. 2 things happened here that we are trying to a explain. 1 why the tree pushed back 90 degrees from the direction you were falling the top, toward the bucket. 2 why the butt seems to have left the cut late causing it come close to the bucket. Couple hypothosis. On the 1 question maybe the top wasnt straight and curved in a few spots making the direction of the intended lie hard to judge therefore trajector not as planned. Seen this happen felling tall forest trees. On the 2nd question. Maybe starting the back cut and hestitaing maybe the tree was pushing back and too much holding wood made the butt remain attached kinda opposite of what you call throwing a top, more like pulling a top with the push back then releasing at the wrong time. One more thought. The tagline being perpendicular to direction of pushback would the pushback move in an arc, not directly away from the direction of intend top direction. Meaning wouldnt the tag line alter the direction of the pushback? If I am not understanding the senerio explain where so I can get a clear understanding.

Those are good thoughts.. I'm still trying to figure out why the direction of push back seemed to be not directly opposite the lay direction. I think it may be due to contact with the adjacent tree, more than the curvature of the stem. Tulips are generally pretty straight and I don't recall this one having any significant bends. The tagline causing the movement to be in an arch seems worth considering. Maybe as the piece went from static to dynamic it allowed stored energy in the rope to suck the but toward me. That's as good of a hypothesis as any so far.

ON your second question, I think it had more to do do with the width of the hinge rather than starting and stopping the back cut. I stopped when the back cut just barely started to open a hair, so there wasn't enough movement in the top to cause push back .... however, in examining the hinge, it appeared much thicker than I expected and had a lot of crushed fibers with minimal pulling fibers. I AM sure that the thickness of that hinge kept the top holding on long enough to significantly effect the push back. SO perhaps a plunge and back release would have been a better move.

Unpredictability is at the heart of this thread Daniel. Add in the fact that you didn’t have an understanding of the forces at play and you ended up with the top coming at you and your bucket like a heat seeking missile..

I am also curious as to why you only use a swing Dutchman in low risk situations? Might it have something to do with the fact that it is a notoriously unpredictable cut prone to inconsistent outcomes? Enlighten us Mr. Miyagi!

Since I can’t make heads or tails of your first couple paragraphs please answer me this. If your tops intended lay was at 12 o’clock, which direction were you pulling on the tagline?

I thought the tag line was pulling at 9, close to perpendicular to the lean. However, it may not have been completely perpendicular, and I did change the lay when I got up there. I moved it slightly more in line with the tag line, but probably 10 degrees, which doesn't seem enough to make a difference.. That's really why I want to take a close look at the video. I think it will show that the top fell mostly perpendicular to the tag line and the boom.

As far as the swing Dutchman goes, I can tell you when not to use it.

 

[Daniel]

Are you now saying you make a swinging dutchy on this top?
For shit sakes!

NO, just using the swing as an example.

Add another strike to the list using a landscapers rope. What in the hell is a landscaper doing with a 5/8ths / 3/4 line? I assume it was his truck and him behind the wheel?

He does tree work to. He's got a chipper and chip truck.. so the rope was bonafide... He was driving my dodge pick up.

 

[owScott]

I like the way you think.. that would be a cripple and pull scenario and certainly a good way to mitigate risk. I've used it on many tops.. some of those are in videos listed earlier in this thread. This wasn't a good scenario for that cut... coming down in the bucket would have put me very close to under a compromised huge top that could have broken out in a gust of wind... setting up the pull line would have been an issue as well.



Those are good thoughts.. I'm still trying to figure out why the direction of push back seemed to be not directly opposite the lay direction. I think it may be due to contact with the adjacent tree, more than the curvature of the stem. Tulips are generally pretty straight and I don't recall this one having any significant bends. The tagline causing the movement to be in an arch seems worth considering. Maybe as the piece went from static to dynamic it allowed stored energy in the rope to suck the but toward me. That's as good of a hypothesis as any so far.

ON your second question, I think it had more to do do with the width of the hinge rather than starting and stopping the back cut. I stopped when the back cut just barely started to open a hair, so there wasn't enough movement in the top to cause push back .... however, in examining the hinge, it appeared much thicker than I expected and had a lot of crushed fibers with minimal pulling fibers. I AM sure that the thickness of that hinge kept the top holding on long enough to significantly effect the push back. SO perhaps a plunge and back release would have been a better move.

I thought the tag line was pulling at 9, close to perpendicular to the lean. However, it may not have been completely perpendicular, and I did change the lay when I got up there. I moved it slightly more in line with the tag line, but probably 10 degrees, which doesn't seem enough to make a difference.. That's really why I want to take a close look at the video. I think it will show that the top fell mostly perpendicular to the tag line and the boom.

As far as the swing Dutchman goes, I can tell you when not to use it.

I think its more about geometry than stored energy. Anchor a piece of 12" string put a pencil on the other end. If you keep the string tight and move the pencil it will move in a radius. In this case moving the stems pushback towad the bucket. Not knowing exactly where the bucket truck was positioned in my cripple and pull solution you could just move the bucket to the side not down. The top being anchored witha tag should have prevented the top from coming your way. Maybe just adding a tag to the top and your solution would have prevented the top coming at you. How about shooting a line from the bucket into the top?

 

[owScott]

Even though the trees were seperate when you started the cut as the top moved it caught the other tree altering the top as you mentioned. This is real danger when topping forest trees. top catches another tree and flips the tops back at you. I have learned that the hard way. Taller the top the more likely. Why I generally take small tops in tight forested areas .

 

[Bendroctanus]

He was driving my dodge pick up.

That’s real crime of all this! You were using a Dodge!!

 

[evo]

NO, just using the swing as an example.

He does tree work to. He's got a chipper and chip truck.. so the rope was bonafide... He was driving my dodge pick up.

Gotcha. So if this went worse, and you were killed. Woulda it been his fault or your own?

 

[owScott]

I like the way you think.. that would be a cripple and pull scenario and certainly a good way to mitigate risk. I've used it on many tops.. some of those are in videos listed earlier in this thread. This wasn't a good scenario for that cut... coming down in the bucket would have put me very close to under a compromised huge top that could have broken out in a gust of wind... setting up the pull line would have been an issue as well.



Those are good thoughts.. I'm still trying to figure out why the direction of push back seemed to be not directly opposite the lay direction. I think it may be due to contact with the adjacent tree, more than the curvature of the stem. Tulips are generally pretty straight and I don't recall this one having any significant bends. The tagline causing the movement to be in an arch seems worth considering. Maybe as the piece went from static to dynamic it allowed stored energy in the rope to suck the but toward me. That's as good of a hypothesis as any so far.

ON your second question, I think it had more to do do with the width of the hinge rather than starting and stopping the back cut. I stopped when the back cut just barely started to open a hair, so there wasn't enough movement in the top to cause push back .... however, in examining the hinge, it appeared much thicker than I expected and had a lot of crushed fibers with minimal pulling fibers. I AM sure that the thickness of that hinge kept the top holding on long enough to significantly effect the push back. SO perhaps a plunge and back release would have been a better move.

I thought the tag line was pulling at 9, close to perpendicular to the lean. However, it may not have been completely perpendicular, and I did change the lay when I got up there. I moved it slightly more in line with the tag line, but probably 10 degrees, which doesn't seem enough to make a difference.. That's really why I want to take a close look at the video. I think it will show that the top fell mostly perpendicular to the tag line and the boom.

As far as the swing Dutchman goes, I can tell you when not to use it.

What I am saying is that the thickness of the hinge kept the butt to long causing a release too late possibly causing a wanky exit. A plunge cut and back release would have accomplished the same as staying in the cut meaning getting to your intended hinge wood quicker hence a quicker release. A plunge cut may have been too abrupt causing a even more uncerntain push back. I generally only use a plunge cut when concerned about barber chair.

 

[owScott]

Final thought, how important was it to untangle the branches? They seemed to seperate without alot of fuss with some pull. So maybe that big of a cut would have just went free maybe not I wasnt there.

 

[Daniel]

Final thought, how important was it to untangle the branches? They seemed to seperate without alot of fuss with some pull. So maybe that big of a cut would have just went free maybe not I wasnt there.

We'll never know.. I was about to start the saw when a little breeze caused the separation.

 

[Daniel]

Gotcha. So if this went worse, and you were killed. Woulda it been his fault or your own?

You know the answer to that question...

 

[evo]

You know the answer to that question...

Then humble up. You made a bad call, almost got bit, then come here bashing and arguing every one about the series of errors you made.

 

[southsoundtree]

Even though the trees were seperate when you started the cut as the top moved it caught the other tree altering the top as you mentioned. This is real danger when topping forest trees. top catches another tree and flips the tops back at you. I have learned that the hard way. Taller the top the more likely. Why I generally take small tops in tight forested areas .

Absolutely

 

[islandarb]

Then humble up. You made a bad call, almost got bit, then come here bashing and arguing every one about the series of errors you made.

He would never do this in a million years Jesse.... let's be realistic here. Daniel will never admit fault or lack of judgement.

 

[treegongfu]

It may not have provided a total solution, or even been feasible in this situation, but sometimes you can move the other tree. The tree in the way can be pulled with a tag line to give more room and disentangle the two trees.

Did you consider that Daniel?