3D printed gear hooks

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Bart_

Well-Known Member
Location
GTA
I admitted to referring to the Wraptor leading to my Arbscender, but gosh the sheaves on the Wraptor were reminiscent of the sailing industry. There's no Arbscenders for sale. I'll one-off gear for myself but never for sale. I have two custom rope wrenches, three hybrid multi-scenders and a couple custom Haas's, custom suspender/chestie and three weird RW tethers partly copied off Ocean's/Moss, a Moss trigger on my home "large"shot (clever dodge huh?). I borrow but don't sell. I almost made a copy foldable bigshot but lost enthusiasm when the fixed version got me by. I do also have a small light crazy heavy tubing "shot" that kicks like a mule but will throw a decent bag up.

Word of advice Rico's a nice guy deserving of respect but don't poke him.

edit - forgot about the bms belay spool home brew, a useful piece of gear . also confessing a bent Happy Hooker and a quasi Arbor trolley and that was after the Reg so not much for excuses
 
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rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
@rico this hook looks to my eyes like something in between the new Buck carrier and a Shembiner. There are obvious differences, like the shape and size of the opening, the overall size of the storage area, the orientation of the strong axis of the material, the lack of a little bump to retain a saw or tool, the price, etc. If you could unsee this whole thread from the beginning and @treesap had posted a title like "multi-purpose gear hook" and had never mentioned the Shembiner would you have the same feelings? This looks more to me like the drill/driver hooks made for toolbelts you can buy in many different iterations of the same idea. Lots of companies make them with only tiny differences and consumers are free to pick the one that has the details they like most for their own use. I agree with you most of the time but this one is a hard sell for me so I'd like to know where you're coming from. Of course Petzl robbed Kevin, of course Weaver copied Richard. Those are blatant examples of Goliath vs. David in the financial department but this is such a basic concept it seems hard to make a case of stealing an idea when there are many differences in even this basic idea. Do you believe that the OP mentioning the Shembiner by name was an attempt at associating it's success with his product? Is there a back story we aren't privy to? I'd love to know where your coming from and I don't think I'm the only one. No offense intended to either party here either.
Its super simple. The hook in question is a clear ripoff of a Shem-biner, which in turn will take $ out of the pocket of CMI, who has obviously legally worked out some sort of deal to produce the Shem-biner...This is a small tightknit industry with enough of this kind of bullshit going on... I myself try my best not to support this kind of thievery and will voice my opinion when I see it going on.

I also find it very telling that Treesap told us that he had reached out to CMI and that they had never responded back. Bullshit! When I reached out to CMI with a question about onwnership and any patents on the Shembiner they responded back to me in well under an hour....As I said, honesty and integrity matter, and this young man seem to have neither.

Hope that clears it up...
 
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treesap

Well-Known Member
Location
east TN
No back story here. The hook in question is a clear kickoff of a shembiner, which in turn will take $ out of the pocket of CMI, who has obviously legally work out some sort of deal to produce the Sheembiner...This is a small tight knit industry with enough of this kind of bullshit going on... I myself try my best not to support this kind of thievery and will voice my opinion when I see it going on.

I also find it very telling that Treesap told us all that he had reached out to CMI and that they had never responded back. Bullshit! When I reached out to CMI with a question about onwnership and patents on the Shembiner they responded back to me in well under an hour....As I said honesty and integrity matters
as a matter of fact I did contact CMI thru their contact page on the website.
you can keep spreading lies, I dont care, your just going on my ignore list, go mess with someone else
you are not going to get my respect if you will not respect me, im not going to be nice to someone who is nothing more than an annoying brat that has nothing better to do than to mess with me


also, post a screenshot of your conversation with CMI about the shembiner, we all want to see it
 

rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
Out of fairness to CMI I will not disclose our entire conversation, but here is proof that they did in fact respond to my question concerning the Shem, which I asked via their website contact page on the morning of Tues, March 2nd.



Screen Shot 2021-03-05 at 7.12.21 AM.png
 
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rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
In the spirt of being completely honesty I will say that it appears there is no patent on the shembiner...As such there isn't much CMI or anyone else can do to stop Treesap from manufacturing his cheap plastic knockoff and selling them online....

Was Treesap less than honest with us concerning his attempt to contact Cmi? Obviously. Otherwise he would have already known all this..

Is it ok to steal others ideas and take money out of other folks pockets? IMHO, nope.
 
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Stumpsprouts

Well-Known Member
Location
Asheville
In the spirt of being completely honesty I will say that it appears there is no patent on the shembiner...As such there isn't much CMI or anyone else can do to stop Treesap from manufacturing his cheap plastic knockoff and selling them online....

Was Treesap less than honest with us concerning his attempt to contact Cmi? Obviously. Otherwise he would have already known all this..

Is it ok to steal others ideas and take money out of other folks pockets? IMHO, nope.
What’s the line between stealing and riffing/innovating? We are talking about a hook here. I think this is a bit of a overreaction.
 

rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
What’s the line between stealing and riffing/innovating? We are talking about a hook here. I think this is a bit of a overreaction.
Tell that to the folks at CMI who took the financial, ethical, and legal steps needed to be able to legitimately produce the Shem-biner....
 
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rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
Do I really need to answer the question as to whether I believe this hook is a blatant ripoff (stealing).
And to suggest its innovative is a fucking joke....
 
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southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
Location
Olympia, WA
BTW, I was referring to @Stumpsprouts 's question about gear evolution/ innovation/ riffing/ stealing.

Clearly, this hook was influenced by the Shembiner, which is a hook.

Previously, people used/ sold hooks.



Different rigid and stiff Rope Wrench tethers have a lot in common.

Carabiner and snap hooks have a lot on common with their predecessors.

What makes something distinct enough to be protected?




Idk who said its innovative. 3d printing is something different.
The Shembiner looks superior. I wouldn't know from experience...I use a taped open Kong Paddle biner, IIRC, on my saddle, with a notched biner nose (or however you call the ledge for the gate on the pin), similar to the grabby bit on the Shembiner.
I can remove the tape easily, if I want a gated saw biner.
 
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rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
There was a question, there.
BTW, I was referring to @Stumpsprouts 's question about gear evolution/ innovation/ riffing/ stealing.

Clearly, this hook was influenced by the Shembiner, which is a hook.

Previously, people used/ sold hooks.



Different rigid and stiff Rope Wrench tethers have a lot in common.

Carabiner and snap hooks have a lot on common with their predecessors.

What makes something distinct enough to be protected?




Idk who said its innovative. 3d printing is something different.
The Shembiner looks superior. I wouldn't know from experience...I use a taped open Kong Paddle biner, IIRC, on my saddle, with a notched biner nose (or however you call the ledge for the gate on the pin), similar to the grabby bit on the Shembiner.
I can remove the tape easily, if I want a gated saw biner.
Sorry I wasn't coming at you southsound, but was responding to sprouts question about "stealing' and his suggestion that this hook is somehow 'innovating".
 
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ATH

Well-Known Member
Location
Ohio
In the spirt of being completely honesty I will say that it appears there is no patent on the shembiner...As such there isn't much CMI or anyone else can do to stop Treesap from manufacturing his cheap plastic knockoff and selling them online....

Was Treesap less than honest with us concerning his attempt to contact Cmi? Obviously. Otherwise he would have already known all this..

Is it ok to steal others ideas and take money out of other folks pockets? IMHO, nope.
Perhaps CMI recognized the Shembiner wasn't unique enough to patent? If that is the case perhaps it is considered "public domain" - nothing unique about it. (the alternative is they didn't think they'd make enough money to pay for the patent) If that is the case, @treesap didn't "steal" anything that belonged to anybody. Why would CMI still make such a device? Why does Bayer still make Asprin? They have market access and it doesn't cost much to make.

I have no reason to doubt treesap contacted CMI. Why would they respond to him if they have nothing to protect? It would make no sense for them to respond with:
*Sure...make anything you want, we can't do anything about it
*No, you can't make them because we don't want you to, but we can't actually enforce that
so what is CMI going to say? It makes sense that they would just ignore the message.

I do agree that ideas need to be protected, so don't hear me wrong on that. Just guessing why CMI didn't patent the Shembiner.
 

Stumpsprouts

Well-Known Member
Location
Asheville
Do I really need to answer the question as to whether I believe this hook is a blatant ripoff (stealing).
And to suggest its innovative is a fucking joke....
Other comments have said what I wanted to say a lot better than I did, so in short,

¯\_(ツ)_/¯​

 

rico

Well-Known Member
Location
redwoods
Perhaps CMI recognized the Shembiner wasn't unique enough to patent? If that is the case perhaps it is considered "public domain" - nothing unique about it. (the alternative is they didn't think they'd make enough money to pay for the patent) If that is the case, @treesap didn't "steal" anything that belonged to anybody. Why would CMI still make such a device? Why does Bayer still make Asprin? They have market access and it doesn't cost much to make.

I have no reason to doubt treesap contacted CMI. Why would they respond to him if they have nothing to protect? It would make no sense for them to respond with:
*Sure...make anything you want, we can't do anything about it
*No, you can't make them because we don't want you to, but we can't actually enforce that
so what is CMI going to say? It makes sense that they would just ignore the message.

I do agree that ideas need to be protected, so don't hear me wrong on that. Just guessing why CMI didn't patent the Shembiner.
Things we know-

1. I am an asshole who can become a world class asshole with little more than a gentle nudge.

2. This hook design/idea did not come from Treesap, and instead came from the mind of Shem.

3. CMI bought ($$$$) the idea from Shem.

4. According to Sap when he contacted CMI via their website concerning patents/ownership they never responded, yet when I contacted CMI via their website with essentially the same questions they responded in under and hour. Fucking strange?

5. Everytime Sap sells one of his hooks he is potentially taking money from CMI.

6. Everyone here is free to send Sap their money for his plastic interpretation of another mans idea that someone else payed for.
 
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ATH

Well-Known Member
Location
Ohio
.....

4. According to Sap when he contacted CMI via their website concerning patents/ownership they never responded, yet when I contacted CMI via their website with essentially the same questions they responded in under and hour. Fucking strange?....
I guess I was saying I don't think it that strange they didn't reply. What would CMI say? Maybe their best move was to ignore???
 

DumpyMcDoodleface

Active Member
Location
My house
Wow this got hot.

I'm no lawyer but I do have my name on several patents. Now if we start with the intent behind the patent process:

The patent protects the inventor allowing them to protect their intellectual property for a limited time, while promoting innovation by making publicly available the technology or ideas behind the patent.

To be patentable, it has to be something new and not obvious. Putting a hook alone on your belt is far from patentable, and the two designs seem to have some sufficient differences anyway.

The size of certain parts of @treesap s design are defined by the use, so of course they are similar even the same as the shembiner. The part that engages the saddle, rough size of the opening, etc. However being that this is printed, he easily could have made an exact replica of the shembiner, which he did not.

Is someone buying this really not going to buy a shembiner because this exists? I mean you're talking about a bombproof aluminum hook vs. A printed plastic one. The shembiner has a little retention nub and a larger belly preventing slideoff when leaning.

With that said, I've heard a lot of bad things About shembiners in treemos. The extra wide and flat shape on the saphook seems better there. And it's less likely to rotate about. It also appears to stick out less so better to not snag... I don't know how much flex this thing can handle, but I'd imagine it would be somewhat more forgiving than the shembiner.

To me, it would seem this has enough notable differences that would lead some people to prefer this product over the shembiner. That's competition and innovation. How far would we go innovating if we just say oh company x made a rope, everyone else quit making it or inventing variations.

Its not trying to pass itself off as a shembiner, it seems reasonable to assume the mention of it was more indicating it didn't have a gate.

Just my two cents.
 

Tuebor

Well-Known Member
Location
Here
Wow this got hot.

Its not trying to pass itself off as a shembiner, it seems reasonable to assume the mention of it was more indicating it didn't have a gate.

Just my two cents.
It got hot because he originally titled the thread something like: 3D printed Shembiners and offered to sell them. After getting some shit, he changed the title and removed most references to the Shembiner.
 

treesap

Well-Known Member
Location
east TN
Wow this got hot.

I'm no lawyer but I do have my name on several patents. Now if we start with the intent behind the patent process:

The patent protects the inventor allowing them to protect their intellectual property for a limited time, while promoting innovation by making publicly available the technology or ideas behind the patent.

To be patentable, it has to be something new and not obvious. Putting a hook alone on your belt is far from patentable, and the two designs seem to have some sufficient differences anyway.

The size of certain parts of @treesap s design are defined by the use, so of course they are similar even the same as the shembiner. The part that engages the saddle, rough size of the opening, etc. However being that this is printed, he easily could have made an exact replica of the shembiner, which he did not.

Is someone buying this really not going to buy a shembiner because this exists? I mean you're talking about a bombproof aluminum hook vs. A printed plastic one. The shembiner has a little retention nub and a larger belly preventing slideoff when leaning.

With that said, I've heard a lot of bad things About shembiners in treemos. The extra wide and flat shape on the saphook seems better there. And it's less likely to rotate about. It also appears to stick out less so better to not snag... I don't know how much flex this thing can handle, but I'd imagine it would be somewhat more forgiving than the shembiner.

To me, it would seem this has enough notable differences that would lead some people to prefer this product over the shembiner. That's competition and innovation. How far would we go innovating if we just say oh company x made a rope, everyone else quit making it or inventing variations.

Its not trying to pass itself off as a shembiner, it seems reasonable to assume the mention of it was more indicating it didn't have a gate.

Just my two cents.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this
 

treesap

Well-Known Member
Location
east TN
It got hot because he originally titled the thread something like: 3D printed Shembiners and offered to sell them. After getting some shit, he changed the title and removed most references to the Shembiner.
I titled it "3Dprinted Shembiner STYLE gear hooks, NEVER ONCE did I claim these are shembiners, nor did I say I own the shembiner design or name, these are NOT SHEMBINERS
 
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