2023 Contract Climber Rates?

L3VI said:
I mention my race because I feel it's given me an advantage in the time and place I was born in and am living in. I've had plenty of disadvantage too but it seems to me like it's made things a little easier for me, being white. Could be wrong, haven't tried it any other way!
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Come on Levi. A bunch of white men are having a conversation about $'s and we wouldn't want to muddy the waters by bringing race into the conversation..
 
climbhightree said:
So to try to keep this somewhat on topic and not to far down another rabbit trail. How do you suggest to make it fair and equitable, without taking more profit from those who put in the most risk, time, and costs...especially at the business start up time?

Because by doing that (taking the excess profit that is determine by someone else) and giving it to others that have not put in that risk, time, and costs that is what you are doing...giving up it all to another (or a half, quarter, etc)
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L3VI said:
There's a million ways it could be set up but to me it seems only fair and obvious that rewards/risk/liability should be spread around accordingly.
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rico said:
Come on Levi. A bunch of white men are having a conversation about $'s and we wouldn't want to muddy the waters by bringing race into the conversation..
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I'm half Mexican first generation, you guys ever heard of Mountain Enterprises? They're owned by a couple Mexican brothers who's dad started a firewood business.
 
rico said:
You and I are both living proof that it takes more than hard work to become secure in this version of America.. You received help in your pursuit of the American dream, so you of all people should understand this.

Give it all away? WTF are you talking about?
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I am fully aboard giving help to others...we have had this conversation in the past. I just don't think it is the governments (or anyone's) responsibilty to force me to do so...by saying I, or anyone, makes to much profit. Even going back to the original post, I think it is excessive and I would never pay it. But I am not asking/telling him to give part of it away to another...or saying it is too much profit really. I have said good for him if people are paying him that...I wouldnt, and think it is silly for anyone to be. But is it his/their choice.
 
@L3VI That says nothing really, just an idea of a theory. Give a write out of how you would break out cost and wages from a owner down to a groundie

Edit - please include cost to homeowner to...what is a fair price to remove a tree if they do or do not have much money
 
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climbhightree said:
So to try to keep this somewhat on topic and not to far down another rabbit trail. How do you suggest to make it fair and equitable, without taking more profit from those who put in the most risk, time, and costs...especially at the business start up time?

Because by doing that (taking the excess profit that is determine by someone else) and giving it to others that have not put in that risk, time, and costs that is what you are doing...giving up it all to another (or a half, quarter, etc)
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climbhightree said:
Oh I can guarantee Rico won't share a beer (or any drink) with me...though I would have no problem sharing one with him.

I am not saying it is someone's specific fault, and I don't think anyone else has either. But some are saying it is the whites fault, the rich fault, etc ... and being like woe is me, help me out while I continue to make bad choices and don't take the step to better myself. Look at places like Haiti where millions upon millions of money and products have been pour into the country via the government and individuals (even directly to the poor there). Yet it is still one of the poorest countries in the world. A hand out doesnt work...and neither does a hand up unless the person is willing to change and make it work
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I don't drink these days , but I would break bread with you amigo. And please call me Erik, but don't call me late for dinner.

And again no one is asking for handouts, just a more equitable system..

You keep mentioning risk and seem to continually attach it to purchasing equipment (financial risk). What about the risk of life and limb that tens of thousands of climbers take everyday? Many are not even remotely fairly compensated for the risk that they subject themselves to on a daily basis. I have been in the saddle for over 43 years and have seen my fair share of business owners making unfair amounts of money on the backs of those taking the largest risks and having the largest skillsets..Is a bank payment of more importance than life and limb, because from where I am sitting it seems to be that way much too often in this industry.
 
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Vicente said:
I'm half Mexican first generation, you guys ever heard of Mountain Enterprises? They're owned by a couple Mexican brothers who's dad started a firewood business.
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Do you have anything to say specifically about ethnicity in America, today?

Are there any advantages within ethnic communities that you have witnessed?

Disadvantages?

Thanks.
 
Vicente said:
I'm half Mexican first generation, you guys ever heard of Mountain Enterprises? They're owned by a couple Mexican brothers who's dad started a firewood business.
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Mountain Enterprises is legit and do some very serious work that would make many here get a bad case of shaky leg... Nothing but mad respect for them.
 
It is important to distinguish between "smarts" and education.




How many businesses fail that are owned by white men?
Tree businesses seem highly prone to failure, with a large number seeming to be owned by white men.

We need to look at the whole picture, not one side versus the other.
 
Vicente said:
They leave shit everywhere, but they're very financially successful.
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I have seen them do some trees that most would want nothing to do with. I havent seen them around here in a few years but I assume they still have some top level climbers...
 
rico said:
Sorry, but I am not sure what you are asking?
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You seem (please inform me, clearly) to strongly land on the side of society is the problem, and draw along ethic lines.

Do you see places where people are making poor choices that result in difficulties?

A large amount of the most wealthy people in America being white males absolutely doesn't make white males, as a whole, successful.
 
southsoundtree said:
Do you have anything to say specifically about ethnicity in America, today?

Are there any advantages within ethnic communities that you have witnessed?

Disadvantages?

Thanks.
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I think most of it is pretty bullshit, especially out west there's very little actual racism imo, it's there occasionally but nothing excessive like they make out and I think has very very little to do with success especially if you're white and starting poor vs not white. One of my buddies I grew up with is pretty successful he's a few years younger than I am and making great money and has tons of different things he's invested in he's white, talks like a super hick (like bad) and in all honesty I think he is probably more disadvantaged than any of my siblings even though we all grew up in the same place poor rural northern CA on similar incomes. There's also lots of advantages to being brown especially in this day and age tons of grants you can get just for the color of your skin points towards government contracts etc, I'm strongly against it for the most part especially in the cases of people who's family's migrated here at their own will. I do think that giving African Americans who are descended from legal slavery some sort of government assisted loans with a lower interest rate would be great as they are not necessarily here of their own accord and have recently enough been disadvantaged more so than the average white person when it comes to receiving the kind of money it would take to start a small business.
Personally I think government red tape is the hardest thing to overcome and the most destructive thing to those trying to start out and get ahead, especially in this state.
 
rico said:
I have seen them do some trees that most would want nothing to do with. I havent seen them around here in a few years but I assume they still have some top level climbers...
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I see very very little of that, typically it's 6-10 guys with chippers and boom trucks smashing through a few trees working 4-5 hours of the day leaving shit everywhere and not chipping the brush.
 
southsoundtree said:
You seem (please inform me, clearly) to strongly land on the side of society is the problem, and draw along ethic lines.

Do you see places where people are making poor choices that result in difficulties?

A large amount of the most wealthy people in America being white males absolutely doesn't make white males, as a whole, successful.
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America's problem go way beyond ethnic lines and poor choice is color blind. The fact is that being white can many times make the penalty for those poor choices less consequential, and the data bears this out. Minorities do more time for the same crime. Same goes for income and family wealth.

I spent a majority of the last 8 months building a timber framed house on the coast and the level of racism and homophobia on the job-site was shocking. A constant barrage of faggot, dumb mexican, beaner, the n word, etc. I was there to learn so I kept my mouth shut and my head down. A soul sucking experience for sure.
 
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