Looкіng not good at all
New RopeRunner?!?
- Thread starter Matias
- Start date
ghostice
Been here a while
One of the things I quite like about the Hitch Climber Eccentric is ball bearing sheave/ pulley into a fairlead on the bottom (if that's the right term). It tidies up managing the rope into the HCE, esp on a 3:1. I wish they'd think about something like this for the Vertec (is there going to be an upgrade kit coming for only $99.95???). I had wondered why they'd deleted something that worked fine on the RRP on their newer MK III model. Save a buck? Oh well, I wish Nick/ the Notch crew well with this.
OK, I have had enough climbs on the Vertec to form an opinion how it handles different ropes and situations. It's actually fantastic and I love it but it does have a problem that I feel is significant.
First the good stuff. Much better in the hand without the slick pins and way faster on and off the rope. The improved spring and upper adjustable cam work flawlessly. Typical Roperunner with easily controllable descending and swing control. Likewise, going up with knee and foot ascender I can't feel any drag. It most certainly does not need a pulley for that. The lower bollard has substantially more grip than the pulley had which takes more load off the bird making the bird easier to release and enhancing control. I wear gloves, atlas 370s and can operate all the swing gates and the cam adjuster without taking them off! It is incredibly user-friendly!
But the glitch and the cause of significant discussion is in the lower assembly. It is not the lack of a pulley, though simply adding a pulley would certainly mask the issue like it has in the earlier Pro model, it is the fact that the teardrop attachment point is too short and does not clear the lower friction body when tailing the rope. When you combine that with a bollard that is less slippery and is set much closer to the friction body than the pulley was, you get multiple potential times for rope jamming and/or carabiner catching. When the rope is being tailed the carabiner should never have contact with the friction body. This is what is causing all the bad press. It is not the lack of pulley.
This, fortunately has a simple fix. A new lower attachment piece that is longer and with a hole instead of being fully routed out will allow all components to work as designed without any interference or the need to use only 'some' carabiners.
As a sole proprietor with no employees I am able to do things others may not. I also have enough experience to understand tool interactions. That said, I have an attachment that bypasses these problems. So I know how good the Vertec can be when the interference is removed.
First the good stuff. Much better in the hand without the slick pins and way faster on and off the rope. The improved spring and upper adjustable cam work flawlessly. Typical Roperunner with easily controllable descending and swing control. Likewise, going up with knee and foot ascender I can't feel any drag. It most certainly does not need a pulley for that. The lower bollard has substantially more grip than the pulley had which takes more load off the bird making the bird easier to release and enhancing control. I wear gloves, atlas 370s and can operate all the swing gates and the cam adjuster without taking them off! It is incredibly user-friendly!
But the glitch and the cause of significant discussion is in the lower assembly. It is not the lack of a pulley, though simply adding a pulley would certainly mask the issue like it has in the earlier Pro model, it is the fact that the teardrop attachment point is too short and does not clear the lower friction body when tailing the rope. When you combine that with a bollard that is less slippery and is set much closer to the friction body than the pulley was, you get multiple potential times for rope jamming and/or carabiner catching. When the rope is being tailed the carabiner should never have contact with the friction body. This is what is causing all the bad press. It is not the lack of pulley.
This, fortunately has a simple fix. A new lower attachment piece that is longer and with a hole instead of being fully routed out will allow all components to work as designed without any interference or the need to use only 'some' carabiners.
As a sole proprietor with no employees I am able to do things others may not. I also have enough experience to understand tool interactions. That said, I have an attachment that bypasses these problems. So I know how good the Vertec can be when the interference is removed.
Matias
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Butte County
Thanks for the update. That sounds like a reasonable suspicion that I hope to have confirmed by enough folks to get Notch's attention. I look forward to a revised v2
ghostice
Been here a while
I do so hope that RRV "running changes" aren't quietly made maybe similar to what new RRP's is/ was/ could be shipped with, to fix the hex screw stripping issue, otherwise we'll never know what we're buying - new stock, old stock, re-jigged stock? With life support equipment especially, "version control" and ability to trace thru your suppliers to purchasers/ end users in case of recalls etc. is really the hallmark of a Tier 1 equipment supplier (why I like DMM or Grivel frankly for alpine climbing gear). It's not just inventing stuff, it's having all the other attributes in place if you need them, not just after something happens. This is sadly lacking in some equipment manufacturers/ suppliers in this industry yet. And it's something I wish company's would advertise/ demonstrate capability in - for life support I'm not "price transfixed" but would gladly pay more for gear coming from a Tier I outfit I know stands behind me . . . up a tree . . . way up on some tat and a mechanical thingy. What was the line from Apollo 13 - going into space on a giant candle put together by the lowest bidder? Great feedback DSMc. Cheers all and have a great weekend.
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Here's a few more thoughts on the Vertec. As it is now with just a few climbing jobs done, it definitely favors ropes on the thinner side. That will no doubt change as more climbing creates additional internal clearance, but as a reference, the Roperunner Pro has approximately 20mm of space between the bottom pulley and friction body. The Vertec on the other hand has less than 15mm. That's a big difference! In fact, you can jam the pulley on the Pro so that it doesn't even spin and it will still have a slicker feel when tending slack.
Also, the radius of the lower bollard of the Vertec is approximately 135mm while the Pro has a radius of approximately 145mm. This makes for a very fast engagement on the Vertec bottom bollard and a shallow rope angle from the friction body. These details are major contributors as to why the Vertec has a different feel when tailing slack with an upward pull. This does not make any difference to its free floating feel on a rope walk ascent. Again, it's not just the difference between a pulley and a bollard.
But designing tools is a series of compromises. In order to get more grip on the lower part on the Vertec, thereby improving the birds modulation and function, this is one of the tradeoffs. The Vertec is very good at what it does with remembering that in my opinion, the carabiner attachment point can be improved.
Also, the radius of the lower bollard of the Vertec is approximately 135mm while the Pro has a radius of approximately 145mm. This makes for a very fast engagement on the Vertec bottom bollard and a shallow rope angle from the friction body. These details are major contributors as to why the Vertec has a different feel when tailing slack with an upward pull. This does not make any difference to its free floating feel on a rope walk ascent. Again, it's not just the difference between a pulley and a bollard.
But designing tools is a series of compromises. In order to get more grip on the lower part on the Vertec, thereby improving the birds modulation and function, this is one of the tradeoffs. The Vertec is very good at what it does with remembering that in my opinion, the carabiner attachment point can be improved.
ghostice
Been here a while
How do you think the RRV will work then on dirty-er rope or sapped up ropes in the 11.3 to 11.7 range then? That was one of the topics in a video previously in this thread I think. Sap could be a bit of a show stopper with the Akimbo (but to be fair hitches often aren't fond of sap either).
If you look closely at the video with the guy struggling to get his rope to tend slack with the Vertec, you will see it is not the condition of the rope that is the problem. It is 100% the carabiner hitting the friction body. When that happens the bollard cannot move away from the friction body stopping friction release. You can also clearly see that as soon as the carabiner clears the friction body, the rope starts tending properly again.
This is a situation that should not exist. Larger diameter rope will reduce clearances in this area. This is also going to be at its absolute worst on a brand new Vertec with no wear divots on the friction body. Just the understanding of what is happening gives you the ability to avoid it through careful attachment selection and slack tending technique. Even with this issue, I will continue to use the Vertec and see how or what changes over time.
Pitch is a bitch and the enemy of all things that slide. I have been stopped dead in my tracks hitting sap even on a Unicender, which I consider one of the least sap sensitive climbing devices. One of the many things I love about SRS is the ability to minimize the tree to rope contact, thereby avoiding that crap as much as possible. If you do find yourself jammed up, don't be afraid to use a solvent to clear the device and rope. Even a small dab of chainsaw fuel will quickly remove sap and not hurt your climbing line.
This is a situation that should not exist. Larger diameter rope will reduce clearances in this area. This is also going to be at its absolute worst on a brand new Vertec with no wear divots on the friction body. Just the understanding of what is happening gives you the ability to avoid it through careful attachment selection and slack tending technique. Even with this issue, I will continue to use the Vertec and see how or what changes over time.
Pitch is a bitch and the enemy of all things that slide. I have been stopped dead in my tracks hitting sap even on a Unicender, which I consider one of the least sap sensitive climbing devices. One of the many things I love about SRS is the ability to minimize the tree to rope contact, thereby avoiding that crap as much as possible. If you do find yourself jammed up, don't be afraid to use a solvent to clear the device and rope. Even a small dab of chainsaw fuel will quickly remove sap and not hurt your climbing line.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
Carabiner choice makes a difference. Round better, I beam bad. Rock Exotica round, pretty much all of my carabiners are CT. Thinner ropes are less of a problem. It is a pretty bad miss but it will be resolved. There is a lot of discussion taking place.
CT really good manufacturer
ghostice
Been here a while
In yet another RRV thread derail (sorry) - been playing with the Arbesession hitch and the Arbsession Caralink V2 tether - I gotta say this thing is pretty much the sweetest hitch rig I've ever used. Pics show 26" Donaghys Armor-Prus 8mm Sewn Eye to Eye on 11.5 mm Tachyon - it's basically Arbsession's Kit 5 with the 8 1/2 inch tether and the ArbSession Hitch. One thing I would do after reading Patrick's posts above is substitute the DMM triple locking PerfectO that comes with the kit for a DMM PerfectO with a closure DMM calls KwickLock - twist and open. This has a little bigger gate than the straight gate PerfectO and maybe doesn't flop around as much (for me anyway). Casey said he'll carry these if you want to order one so you can take the tether off and switch to moving rope just as easily as the straight gate. I also used Aquaseal (can't seem to stay away from the stuff) to stiffen up the Caralink tether to PerfectO connection (you can see this in the pic below). With couple of coats of 'flexible' polyurethane, the whole tether became essentially rigid. Cats meow this is. Cheers all
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Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
I had issues with the Arbsession hitch and have gone to the Catalyon instead. More reliable engagement.
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
I played with one yesterday. Your comments were super helpful for me to understand where the issues is. I can see the interface where its rubbing the anodization off the biner at the contact point. Thanks for your descriptions.
ghostice
Been here a while
Thank you Steve - I shall give the Catalyon a try too.
Cool, Steve. It's nice to hear your getting back into the climbing side of things. I have always found that being in a tree and being comfortable with what you are doing, is a very satisfying and fulfilling activity. Both physically and mentally.
Penny for your thoughts on the Vertec. I know you are delving deeper into various MRS techniques and that is certainly not the Vertecs strongest point. I find myself really liking this new multisender for my style of climbing.
Penny for your thoughts on the Vertec. I know you are delving deeper into various MRS techniques and that is certainly not the Vertecs strongest point. I find myself really liking this new multisender for my style of climbing.
The Catalyon is a mirror image of an Arbsession Hitch, that’s been rotated 180 degrees. Tying an Arbsession and taking the eyes to the back will give the same results.
Extending the Arbsession’s lower section 2 or 3 more times creates enough friction for it to be used on a fixed rope alone, like the Sticht. It self tends, especially if tied snuggly.
Extending the Arbsession’s lower section 2 or 3 more times creates enough friction for it to be used on a fixed rope alone, like the Sticht. It self tends, especially if tied snuggly.
The above is very similar to the Synergy X, someone has done the same with the Michoacán, called the WLR, and I’ve come up with a couple variations. I call them Series hitches, hard to equalize the eye length, tying a stopper in back is the easy way to go.
ghostice
Been here a while
Snakessssssss bendsssssss !
(recalling Mogli and Jungle Book on Disney with the grandkids . .the snake Kaa sings "Trust in Me . . . . )
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