real tree work

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That is what I like about the new standards, it spells out the goal clearly.. Like so many things it all depends on the tree, location, site, and goal and even weather the day of the work. If I recall Matt's work correctly thinning the ends or outer third of the green while not as effective as drop crotching retained near normal osculation, but the movement was dampened nearly as much as drop crotching.... In my experience end thinning is the best approach for the tree, but short lived results as the tree will quickly put on more.

Funny enough watching the same un pruned conifers, well over a decade, they seem to naturally lions tail in response to the wind. I've seen some so extreme that if I didnt see it the night before the storm I would have thought someone gaffed it and cut everything off of each limb with a short pole saw. This isn't the norm, but does happen with our douglas firs. Im talking second growth trees with limbs in the 2-4" range. Not the 'wolf' trees sitting in a field their whole life.
I have notice that, around my place at least, the 95 foot white pines that are sheltered in thick woods are full and the branches start about 20 feet up. The loners out in the open are 95 feet tall and the first branch you come to is 75 feet up. I don't know if that is from the wind, the light exposure, or a combination of both. Or maybe it has nothing to do with either. But it is curious and fun to think about as to why. None have been touched by anyone.
 
I have notice that, around my place at least, the 95 foot white pines that are sheltered in thick woods are full and the branches start about 20 feet up. The loners out in the open are 95 feet tall and the first branch you come to is 75 feet up.
Many years ago I read an article about research done about the size of white pines. My memory pf the article might be challenged here

The researcher interest was piqued by looking at the distribution of the largest white pines over it's growing range. The distribution didn't make sense to him. The variables you're thnking of in north central Minnesota didn't fit in North Carolina.

The takeaway that I got was that he concluded that the trees growing in the ice and heavy, wet snow zone lead to the tallest and thickest white pines. Routine storms that would strip off juvenile branches. THere would be enough live branches left to stimulate regrowth of a thick covering of juvenile branches. This repeated regrowth from ice and heavy, wet,snow lead to breakage and regrowth cycles. The young branches would add to large buildups of trunk tissues.

White pines growing along the 'snow zone' would get stripped and bulked up more than from the dryer snows, and fewer ice storms, further north.
 
Many years ago I read an article about research done about the size of white pines. My memory pf the article might be challenged here

The researcher interest was piqued by looking at the distribution of the largest white pines over it's growing range. The distribution didn't make sense to him. The variables you're thnking of in north central Minnesota didn't fit in North Carolina.

The takeaway that I got was that he concluded that the trees growing in the ice and heavy, wet snow zone lead to the tallest and thickest white pines. Routine storms that would strip off juvenile branches. THere would be enough live branches left to stimulate regrowth of a thick covering of juvenile branches. This repeated regrowth from ice and heavy, wet,snow lead to breakage and regrowth cycles. The young branches would add to large buildups of trunk tissues.

White pines growing along the 'snow zone' would get stripped and bulked up more than from the dryer snows, and fewer ice storms, further north.
Thay makes some sense to me. The ones in the dense packed forest have there limbs supported by other trees to aid against the snow loads, and they are sheltered from the wind. Out in the open they have neither. Plus up here it is not uncommon to hit 60 below zero, with 40 below as normal. I can tell you that a tree branch that is 60 below will snap in a slight breeze. Heck, our vehicle axels snap at that temperature. I worked as an electrician in a large, unheated sawmill. They had a rule that nothing would be turned on if it was 50 below or colder because the motor shafts would shatter.
I got off track there, but it makes sense as to why the lone tree has basically no lower limbs and they look like someone lion tailed them.
Now, go to bed. It is getting near 1 am.
 
That is what I like about the new standards, it spells out the goal clearly.. Like so many things it all depends on the tree, location, site, and goal and even weather the day of the work. If I recall Matt's work correctly thinning the ends or outer third of the green while not as effective as drop crotching retained near normal osculation, but the movement was dampened nearly as much as drop crotching.... In my experience end thinning is the best approach for the tree, but short lived results as the tree will quickly put on more.
Thanks for sharing.. word of the day.... osculation.. just texted my GF.. "let's do osculation" ...

While there may be geographic variability in species and conditions there is NFW that thinning a branch tip is going to reduce forces on a bad crotch with included bark anywhere near as well as reduction cuts. I can only speak from experience about eastern hardwoods. Maple, oak, ash, tulip, hickory, cherry, locust, walnut, linden, ginko etc..

You take a tree that has millions of years of evolutionary programming wanting to reach for the sun, because trees evolved to grow in wooded conditions, and put it in a suburban environment where it has wide open skies over the house, pool, road, parking area etc, and especially when there are other trees soaking up the sun in other directions, that tree is going to reach for the sunlight with big heavy horizontal limbs. Quite often, those limbs are going to outgrow their ability to hold themselves up as in the case of storm damage and summer limb drop.

We had an ice storm here in 2014.. the worst any living person could remember. I saw the damage that gets done to these big old trees. MANY times it was a single lowest limb, or just a few of the lowest limbs that failed. They were the biggest horizontal limbs with the most reach because they had been around a lot longer than the upper limbs and because they had to reach away from the tree for the sun as the canopy got taller.

In the case of these big, heavy, reaching, horizontal limbs, it would be completely impractical to thin the tips rather than make one clean reduction cut. Make a 4" cut, taking ten feet of a 35' limb, and what happens? You've removed all that weight from the most leveraged part of the limb. That limb will never fail in a storm... any storm... and it will never have summer limbs drop. In most cases, the limb will recover nicely in its new form. It will put on new growth that looks natural. What you have done is to counteract the negative consequences of putting a tree in an unnatural suburban environment. You'll never get that dramatic effect from thinning the branch tips, so why do it?

The question is how far to take back each limb. When I sell pruning I explain to the customer that each limb will be treated individually, based on its species, size, reach, lean, and condition which considers any defects such as decay and weak branch unions. Those kinds of calls take experience but are generally fairly easy to make. When I pressed the issue, John Ball said the reason he doesn't recommend removing weight from branch tips is because he can't come up with a formula for prescribing how much weight should be taken off. That's pretty lame John. It can't be that hard to figure out. Maybe you can't because you don't know. You're not cutting trees every day for decades.
 
One can thin the ends, without shortening as done with drop crotching.
Sounds like what you are stuck on is YOUR interpretation.
Lots of studies done on this. Many from Australia and Matt set up accelerometers in trees and pruned with different styles. Obviously reduction or drop crotching was most effective. Thinning the tips next best (and most natural form). Gutting, crown cleaning, and lions tailing all increased movement from the control.
World is your oyster, go learn stuff.
accelerometers??? likely had to be used on small trees...

that reminds me of the guy that was evaluating pruning by putting small trees in the bed of a pickup truck and driving down the road...

A perfect example of the limitations of science... there can be many problems making extrapolations in these attempts and no one has to time to prune trees in different ways and see what happens 20 to 75 years later.
 
There are valid and scientifically proven ways to measure loads on trees.

Get acquainted with 'statics' or 'pull testing' trees. Erk Brudi from Munich was a developer of the methods.

Scott Baker/Treesolutions would be my go-to person in the US.

There was a guy from eastern Canada...Montreal or maybe Toronto...too.

The methodology of applying tree statics is based in the same engineering group that develops tall buildings.

Heck, if those skyscrapers in the Emirates can be engineered so can trees. Oh....it has been...for close to 30 years already.

More homework assignments...will they get done? There will be plenty of scientific proofs given too for anyone needing them.
 
There are valid and scientifically proven ways to measure loads on trees.

Get acquainted with 'statics' or 'pull testing' trees. Erk Brudi from Munich was a developer of the methods.

Scott Baker/Treesolutions would be my go-to person in the US.

There was a guy from eastern Canada...Montreal or maybe Toronto...too.

The methodology of applying tree statics is based in the same engineering group that develops tall buildings.

Heck, if those skyscrapers in the Emirates can be engineered so can trees. Oh....it has been...for 20 some years already.

More homework assignments...will they get done?
Scott is a good friend and great teacher. When I met matt it was at a co hosted class/demo from the two of them.
 
accelerometers??? likely had to be used on small trees...

that reminds me of the guy that was evaluating pruning by putting small trees in the bed of a pickup truck and driving down the road...

A perfect example of the limitations of science... there can be many problems making extrapolations in these attempts and no one has to time to prune trees in different ways and see what happens 20 to 75 years later.
Nope, larger trees in a park.
“ Maple, oak, ash, tulip, hickory, cherry, locust, walnut, linden, ginko etc”
We have all those species here too. Many native broadleafs but don’t forget the champion eastern black walnut is just outside of PDX.
No doubt conifers are our bread and butter, but us PNW moss covered hicks do spend our time in hardwoods.IMG_0441.jpeg
 
There are valid and scientifically proven ways to measure loads on trees.

Get acquainted with 'statics' or 'pull testing' trees. Erk Brudi from Munich was a developer of the methods.

Scott Baker/Treesolutions would be my go-to person in the US.

There was a guy from eastern Canada...Montreal or maybe Toronto...too.

The methodology of applying tree statics is based in the same engineering group that develops tall buildings.

Heck, if those skyscrapers in the Emirates can be engineered so can trees. Oh....it has been...for close to 30 years already.

More homework assignments...will they get done? There will be plenty of scientific proofs given too for anyone needing them.
while that may seem like it makes sense Tom...

Brundi is very effective at loading trees with lines and measuring movement to make hazard evaluations, there is no way to measure the difference in wind loads on mature hardwoods between different pruning practices... If you can find it, please put up a link... anyone else???
 
I am loving this thread, I'm learning a lot. Thanks guys.


My 8 year old son is currently going through this phase where he thinks he knows everything. I'm trying to teach him about intellectual humility but he just wants none of it. It's so frustrating because you can't teach someone like that, you know?
 
Nope, larger trees in a park.
“ Maple, oak, ash, tulip, hickory, cherry, locust, walnut, linden, ginko etc”
We have all those species here too. Many native broadleafs but don’t forget the champion eastern black walnut is just outside of PDX.
No doubt conifers are our bread and butter, but us PNW moss covered hicks do spend our time in hardwoods.View attachment 89226
nice one... that tree doesn;t look too big as I sit at my desk.. until the climber is noticed.. first thought was.. did someone hang a little doll up there?
 
Nope, larger trees in a park.
“ Maple, oak, ash, tulip, hickory, cherry, locust, walnut, linden, ginko etc”
We have all those species here too. Many native broadleafs but don’t forget the champion eastern black walnut is just outside of PDX.
No doubt conifers are our bread and butter, but us PNW moss covered hicks do spend our time in hardwoods.View attachment 89226
Repre-frickin’-sent
 
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I am loving this thread, I'm learning a lot. Thanks guys.


My 8 year old son is currently going through this phase where he thinks he knows everything. I'm trying to teach him about intellectual humility but he just wants none of it. It's so frustrating because you can't teach someone like that, you know?
My son is just shy of 7 and he is the same way sometimes. The worst is when he ends up being right hahaha
 
I really liked this video. You had some really good camera angles and the 5:1 advantage was particularly well shot. And you kept a big ass-ash up in the sky!

I was surprised to see no ratchet straps at the base / along the way for climber safety, or no bracing rods at the base as a final step… I probably woulda wet my harness climbing that thing without some support.

What gauge was that steel and what is it rated to?
 
while that may seem like it makes sense Tom...

Brundi is very effective at loading trees with lines and measuring movement to make hazard evaluations, there is no way to measure the difference in wind loads on mature hardwoods between different pruning practices... If you can find it, please put up a link... anyone else???
Why would anyone on this forum fulfill your request. You have shown that all youd do is argue it. Shit sakes I tagged the person WHO HAS DONE this research that IS A MEMBER HERE.
As Tom said do your own homework.

Either recert or take down your claims of being a certified arborist on your business website. I especially thought the cute little blurbs about honesty and integrity were laughable, right next to the claim of being certified.

And please stop sending me stupid messages with cryptic warnings about my karma. Clean your own house before sending me spiritual threats.
 
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this thread is like the twilight zone or groundhog day or something like that lol. I can't believe that anyone even responds to you Daniel after all these years. Back in the day it was more interesting but now it's just overtly confrontational right off the bat. I do believe that originally you were sincere in your kookiness but now it's just a sad thing for attention, fookin weird really. I think you're a legit dude but the way you interact on the forum is strange my man.
 
Do your own homework. I did mine and dragging people around on my shirt tails ain't happening.

What do you know about tree statics? What have you read about it?
The subject is reduction pruning technique Tom... I heard John Ball say he doesn't make recommendations on how much to reduce branch tips because he has no science on the subject... If John Ball has no science, how do you?

"Dragging people around on your shirttails".. now that is funny. You're throwing up the stuff Marv taught you in 1972... And you're all proud of it no matter how lame it is. And some of it is mighty lame. You don't know enough to be embarrassed. You don't like being questioned because you have no answers...

I don't need homework. I know how to prune trees. In the worst ice storm anyone around here can remember my trees came through unscathed. Nasty old falling apart Norway maples didn't lose a limb. Monster white pines lost only a handful of limbs, leaving a pile of brush that one man could drag. While the rest of the neighborhood looked like Beruit. One of my condominium clients with 30 homes called up to tell me they didn't have one downed limb. That's experiential knowledge. After seeing that, nothing written on paper is going to change my mind.

I don't need anything from you or anyone else on this forum. I just like talking trees... The talk about thinning the branch tips.... complete nonsense when needing to significantly reduce forces on a compromised structure. That's like telling me my hinges are too fat, or my notches are too deep because you read it in a book or heard it at a conference, or it's not the way Marv taught you in the 70s.
 
I really liked this video. You had some really good camera angles and the 5:1 advantage was particularly well shot. And you kept a big ass-ash up in the sky!

I was surprised to see no ratchet straps at the base / along the way for climber safety, or no bracing rods at the base as a final step… I probably woulda wet my harness climbing that thing without some support.

What gauge was that steel and what is it rated to?
Thank you brother. This was the first time I worked with that climber and he impressed me. I have to bite my tongue these days but back in the day, I called many climbers down in the first 30 minutes. I don't have the patience to watch a man fool around in a tree and fumble with a chainsaw. By contrast, this man was a total pleasure to work with.

He used y 75' bucket as a ladder to get started but before he jumped onto a rope he set a bull line side to side in the two stems which probably wasn't needed for anything other than a mental pick me up. Ratchet straps weren't going to do much with all that leverage in the 100'+ stems. You couldn't see that support line in the video but it was in the tree.

That was 1/4" EHS steel cable.. 2 cables at that height are good for 15+ years.... Unlikely the tree will last that long, but at least it won't kill anyone in the meantime. That road gets mighty busy on weekdays and there would be no surviving a direct hit from that monster.
 
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