Using used-climbing-ropes as bull lines? And Q on force in a controlled-speedline setup :)

eyehearttrees

eyehearttrees

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#1, using climb-lines as rigging lines:
I've got an idea that, as time goes by for me in this industry, that every time I retire a climb-line that I can simply make it into a rigging-line, obviously the strength would only allow light & light-medium drops as my 11.7mm double-braid/24-braid Blue Moon with a 6,500 lbs ABS should make a fine line for light&medium duty rigging (and is probably a great textile-match, in terms of its tight cover-braid, 1/2" diameter and 6500lbs MSB) so am planning to swap from Blue Moon to Adrenaline (would LOVE thoughts on this switch!!) right now while the Blue Moon is still in 90% like-new condition, "A-/B+ condition", so if I ordered Drenaline today I could have the Blue moon as my medium-diuty rigging line (one hesitation I have is that it's an incredibly static line, Blue Moon's elasticity is a tight 1.4% so will certainly say it's fine for lower-force rigging (IE it the Blue Moon becomes a bull-line that i use with my Safeloc [2,700lbs SWL] since if I used, say, 5/8" Polydyne (~20k lbs SWL, same strength) that you're going to shock-load, is really too-mudh for the Safebloc (at least in nromal-configuratitons, I've got the Bloc here but haven't chosen what type of cordage I want to try as I only have a 3/8" (~65' long) and 1/2" (100.0' long) bull-lines on-hand right now but they're generic rope not Yale/Samson/etc (actually they're $10 at Haror Freight and $15 at Home Depot, it's always a game to try and figure-out just which "over-the-counter", non-arborist-intended gear that's available, for instance I'd gotten my Safebloc w/o a sling for it, and a harbor freight lanyard/sling I had already had (use it for a buck-strap / flipline most-often, I much-prefer flat webbing in that instance over cordage!), thankfully the Safebloc just happened to fit in the sling's eyesperfectly!! But whether it's those 2" flat nylon, 6' long webbing slings for $10 (6' long, 2" double-ply sling) or their ~$5, (4)-pack of 800lbs SWL 1" slings(they're great for branch-slings when working in the lower-weight-range as the Safeloc recommnends (I know the block's 5:1 SWL is 2,700lbs, though a 2700lbs load would tear-though my current lines, at any rate whether it's new or old lines the reality is that unless I put another termination-end on the Safebloc sling I'll forever just have 1 leg in-use of that 3/4" tenex TEC which is, IMO, ridiculously wasteful (these are ~20k lbs MBS slings, cutting that in-half by using single-leg configurationsn is just silly imo so my current approach is to get one of those ~10', 3/4 Tenex slings (20k ABS) that has (1) rigging-ring on one end, and **the Safeloc" on that rope becomes one-of-two terminations/ends which not only allows that great bend-radius for your bull-line but also that's also getting fixed control from the friction of the rings & Safebloc as-opposed-to the ridiculously tight bending of line + zero friction that's inhernet to blocks (think DMM's top-offering is a mere 3" wide which, for up to 3/4" rope-diameter usage , just has me shaking my head thinking what horrible bend-radius that is on the bull-line (and what horrible bend-radius the block's sling's attachment point is, even tighter than the bull-line's bollard/pulley, these tight bend-radius' are just horrible to your rope and whter it's rope-longevity or groundsman control of the load the ringed-devices are where it's at!!

Thanks for any thoughts on this, am mostly curious about:
- whether my very-static Blue Moon can be used this way w/o any issues I'm missing, and
- whether Drenaline is a good climbing-rope, I mean I love my blue moon in fact it's crossed my mind to simply order the same - it's not broken don't fix it - howver I want a slightly skinnier, and lighter line if/when the time comes, what worries me the most is that Drenaline is kernmantle and I"m new so Blue Moon (double-braid) was my 1st & only climb-line so far (just got it half a year go) so am genuinely thinking to just order a new Blue Moon for climb-line and make the old one my medium-duty rigging line (my current rigging lines are light-->medium, honestly I'm surprised I haven't broken hem yet, will be nice to have a genuine Medium-Duty cord for use-cases in-between using the 1/2" Blue Moon on the light stuff to medium stufff, and 5/8" (polydyne I think, it's 5/8" offering is as-strong as Stable Braids's 3/4" ABS!! Plus, 3% strech sounds ideal fhe thing's use-cases)

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Got a Q on *Controlled-Speedine* setup, I don't know how I went so long w/o learning about this as a general concept (probalby because I never had any pieces heavy enough to matter, but that'll change very very soon!!), at any rate in watching all the X-slings & Safebloc slings videos out there I found this 'Controlled Speedline' technique where you're using BOTH a speedline to control direction, **as well as** a rigging-line to control speed/travel of the piece along the speedline!
Looks AMAZING, however the force-vectors involved are just beyond my understanding....when I set something up this, and launch it down the speedline at a reduced-speed since it's ALSO connected to a rigging-line that's going through the Safeblock (they showed this in David Driver's X video), how do I calculate max-loads? For instance, is using 2 lines in this configuration, ie not straight/steep speedlines but traditional, 45deg speedlines, significantly stronger? I guess I'm watching these and seeing gigantic pieces being launched BUT I'm uncertain whether the two lines are allowing more weight than either could've alone in that orientation, OR if it's simply a speedline lets you aim a rigged-piece, but you've still gotta respect your rigging-setup's final SWL's in-place despite having 2 ropes supporting this operation instead of the typical 1 rope from plain-rigging or plain-speedlining, or does the speedline rope do 100% of the support of the load, while the rigging-line is SOLELY to control speed-along-the-line?

Regardless of the answer to ^ that last one, am SOO psyched for this doubled/'controlled' approach to speedlines, makes so much sense (and we have "crabgrass turf" here in FL so slamming branches on good turf gets you a lot of upset customers (don't matter if you can explain it'll cost a couple hundred more for me to avoid it by rigging every.last.bit >20lbs, and how I'm wasting the time up here (that he's paying me for!) when I could've just let them slam and saved time & he could've had those extra wages go right-towards some sod-tiles or sod-plugs!!)
 
Nothing inherently wrong with repurposing climbing line for light rigging, just understand the limits. 1/2” 12 strand climbing lines are actually great for rigging. Low stretch isn’t necessarily a great thing in rigging ropes, energy absorption can be critical. Sometimes but not always.
To me personally, an A- condition piece of Blue Moon would be worth more to me as a climbing line than a rigging line, and it’s a good idea to have more than 1 climbing line anyways.
I’d suggest a piece of True Blue or another quality 12 strand polyester climb line strictly for rigging. It’s stronger (8000 mbs I think), more stretchy, good for natural or false crotch rigging and a bit easier to grip than 11.7 mm.
There’s some 5/8 solid 12 strands too.

The Harbor Freight rope you speak of is scaring me man.
 
x2 on cheap over the counter gear scaring me . Your going to break something more valuable than the sod! I just hope its not you!
 
The massive run on sentences are turning me off!
The controlled speed line is loading two ropes. How much is dependent on your choices, but usually the speedline is seeing most of the weight. It might not. Where are the ropes? What are the angles? You can catch a piece with a bull line (also attached to a slack speed line) then tension the speed line after dynamic peak load to slide it away. The speed line puts lateral force on the tree and is usually under tension. This requires extra awareness of weak spots and load limiting.
Also, controlled speed lines make the tree very busy. Puzzle things out and triple check interference with your climb line and security of the rigging. Twisting, flipping, branches getting stuck....more gear can mean more problems to solve.
 
+1 on the true blue for the light rigging rope and trash the hardware ropes. Me personally, I do not like my climbing and rigging rope being the same color, let alone the exact same rope.

Ziplining puts a lot of strain on the rope. If your currently zipping on these cheap ropes, it's only a matter of time before you break one. My opinion (and trust me I get it, tree equipment is expensive and I started out very cheap as well) is if your primarily a removal company that you'd be best off with some true blue natural crutch and a porta wrap. Then add in some rigging rings as you can afford them and proper slings. If you got a good deal on the safebloc you could always sell it and use the profits to buy minimalistic rigging gear. If you do a fair share of trimming then also add in one ring or pulley for a false crotch. A rigging block, although it would work, should never be necessary for a trimming job unless there is some very large deadwood.
 
As to Yale 11.7 vs Drenaline, I would not toss your blue moon. Have only been using the latter for the past month or so alongside 11.7, pretty bouncy and annoying for spready trees but pleasant for others. 16 or 12 strand is better suited for rigging as you prob know.
 
Couple things here really sticking out here to me man. Did you say you stuffed your safebloc into a harbor freight webbing sling you had for something else? I wouldn't trust that to last very long from the sounds of it, imagine how things play out if that works itself out?
I really don't think you're gonna get much friction out of a safebloc using such a skinny rigging line but it will work fine for lowering stuff.
I would say you're overthinking things saying the dead end sling is wasteful. The length allows you to tie it into different stems sizes, not limit you to needing unions to work with as rigging points. And if your rigging stuff where your going to break a 3/4" rigging sling in a choked configuration, your doing some crazy. Go smaller.
The blocks are engineered and tested, those bend radius sizes are good. I wish I had something bto reference for you other than just saying that but as I type this I don't have a moment to find something.
 
SafBlock wants 5/8 or 3/4 to meaningfully slow anything down let alone control it.

All the rigging rings and SafBlock get their strength rating from proper cordage, properly seated.

Load that sling up on the ground with a thousand pounds of force and you will probably see how the metal can pop right out of the sling. In the tree .3 seconds later sling is cut by rigging rope and load drops to ground.
 
[Want to be clear that I'm new and am only practicing rigging IE I've never rigged something that actually needed rigging, am still building my kit/gear and my knowledge, didn't mean to give an impression I'm doing any of this where there's anything at stake!]

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Bango Skank said:
Nothing inherently wrong with repurposing climbing line for light rigging, just understand the limits. 1/2” 12 strand climbing lines are actually great for rigging. Low stretch isn’t necessarily a great thing in rigging ropes, energy absorption can be critical. Sometimes but not always.
To me personally, an A- condition piece of Blue Moon would be worth more to me as a climbing line than a rigging line, and it’s a good idea to have more than 1 climbing line anyways.
I’d suggest a piece of True Blue or another quality 12 strand polyester climb line strictly for rigging. It’s stronger (8000 mbs I think), more stretchy, good for natural or false crotch rigging and a bit easier to grip than 11.7 mm.
There’s some 5/8 solid 12 strands too.

The Harbor Freight rope you speak of is scaring me man.
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Had never occurred to me that it's a good idea to have a 2nd climb line, why do you say that? Is it just insurance/backup? I love Bingham's 2-SRT-systems climbing setup but can't imagine ever doing it in-practice..

Also am confused why you'd recommend getting True Blue for use as a bull line? Not only confused at the concept of getting a climb line with the intent of putting it to rigging right away, but also the choice- my next purchase is a real bull line and for ~$40 more than the True Blue I could get what I *think* is a great option: 5/8" Polydyne! $190 for 150', ~19k MBS and 3% stretch....have been going back&forth the past weeks over 5/8" versus 3/4" polydyne (and can't even understand why it wouldn't be the go-to choice for almost anyone, it's strength-per-dollar is the highest, it's by Yale, double-braided, among the highest stretch but not tooo much (3%), and it's among the stronger ropes-by-diameter IE 5/8" polydyne is as strong as 3/4" Stable Braid!) Going with the 3/4" Polydyne seems overkill so have been trying to decide whether it's worth the extra price & weight of the rope, don't want to get the 3/4" and feel I'm never using it remotely near its capacity, nor do I want to get the 5/8" only to be thinking I should've went stronger! Hard trying to guess at it and so few youtubers put the textile specs into their summaries....gut tells me that a 19k MBS, 3% double-braid line would be pretty damn fine for me!

Re the generic ropes, I could've been a lot clearer and apologize, I've never blocked-down a tree and am only rigging things in my yard / things that didn't need to be rigged. I'm hoping to work-for, or subcontract-under, one of the local groups I know and I want to finish learning "the whole package" and rigging is the biggest blank-area for me so everything rigging right now is practice-rigging, the only real work I've done has been "climb up there to drop that limb" or "fell this tree", have had to turn down more tree-work than I could say yes to, I figure that if I'm proficient at the basic types of rigging that I'll be in a far better position to work for/alongside one of the local groups (hell one of them, maybe both but 1 for sure, definitely doesn't set speedlines ever, just that ability will put me in a good spot and thankfully my yard is setup in a way to allow a pretty unlimited amount of practice, well the limit is how much wood I care to have to process after my practice sessions, have a 5' tall pile waiting to be processed before I can do another session LOL!)
 
Jehinten said:
+1 on the true blue for the light rigging rope and trash the hardware ropes. Me personally, I do not like my climbing and rigging rope being the same color, let alone the exact same rope.

Ziplining puts a lot of strain on the rope. If your currently zipping on these cheap ropes, it's only a matter of time before you break one. My opinion (and trust me I get it, tree equipment is expensive and I started out very cheap as well) is if your primarily a removal company that you'd be best off with some true blue natural crutch and a porta wrap. Then add in some rigging rings as you can afford them and proper slings. If you got a good deal on the safebloc you could always sell it and use the profits to buy minimalistic rigging gear. If you do a fair share of trimming then also add in one ring or pulley for a false crotch. A rigging block, although it would work, should never be necessary for a trimming job unless there is some very large deadwood.
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Thanks for the thorough reply! I'm very happy I made this thread because I'd thought I was on-point for my next purchase (a real rigging-line) but am unable to figure-out why you (and someone else) are recommending I get this True Blue? If buying a line for rigging I'm confused for 2 reasons, 1st is why to buy a climb-line as a rigging line at all (I get the idea of using your old climb-line, but to buy one for rigging seems silly - again I'm N00b so just want to understand!), 2nd is that I'm hearing you guys recommend this when, in my mind, I'm thinking "should I get the 5/8", or 3/4", Polydyne?" (the 5/8" polydyne is as strong as 3/4" Stable Braid!)

If the polydyne is/was my next intended purchase, am I correct in thinking I can use it for everything IE that, sure, a lighter line would be more convenient, but the big Polydyne line can handle everything and, afterwards, I'll get a lighter-duty rigging line (for convenience when doing smaller stuff, as well as having another line for 2-rope rigging operations like drifting or controlled speedlines) Put another way, Are there any drawbacks to simply 'jumping-ahead' and getting a ~20k MBS line?

And re selling the Safebloc (got it for $65, thing looks un-touched I suspect it was a demo unit), and getting a minimalistic rigging package, I'm confused here because from my view it'd be insane to sell the Safebloc, the way I see it (and am hoping for corrections/suggestions of course!!) is that I'm very close to a better-than-minimal setup, am thinking all I really need now is:
- heavy rigging line (5/8" or 3/4" polydyne),
- a length of 3/4" tenex to make a loopie or dead-eye for the Safebloc, and
- a portawrap (although this isn't 'needed' so much as "it's nice to have", I'd probably buy it with the polydyne to ensure I never take trunk-wraps with my new bull rope though!)

^that's a touch over $300 and if I'm understanding correctly I'd be able to do any single-line rigging with that (will need another rigging-line to do drifts or controlled-speedlines but that line can come later)

Thanks again for the reply, would love to hear your thoughts on that ^ because in my mind I was just a few hundred from a solid setup, the idea of losing the Safebloc to get a minimum setup seems a step backwards (as does acquiring True Blue for purposes of rigging)
 
JeffGu said:
Since you rarely know in advance what the angles of the speedline/system are going to be, treat both the speedline and the control line systems as though they are going to be seeing the entire load, and choose components accordingly.
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Thanks a lot!! I'd figured the rigging line definitely had to handle the entire load since it's what catches it, what I'm really uncertain about is the speedline's required-strength, obviously it varies by angle but it sucks to have a good idea about what cordage is necessary to drop Xlbs vertically, and zero clue how to determine the forces a speedline sees...my best way to find this info is watching others doing it but most don't list the textiles/ropes used so it's not as helpful as I need it to be!
 
Serf Life said:
As to Yale 11.7 vs Drenaline, I would not toss your blue moon. Have only been using the latter for the past month or so alongside 11.7, pretty bouncy and annoying for spready trees but pleasant for others. 16 or 12 strand is better suited for rigging as you prob know.
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Good to hear, have always had a feeling that I may just stay with BM as my climb line for as long as I'm climbing :D

Re 16 or 12 being better suited for rigging, I actually didn't know / don't think I've read the same....those are still single-braid ropes, I want to use nothing but my rings, Safebloc and a portawrap and it was my understanding that double-braid moves smoother here? Nevermind that I can get far more strength-per-dollar with double-braid, the Polydyne line seems a go-to am quite sure that's where I'll end up am just uncertain whether it's worth splurging for the 3/4" (26k MBS) when their 5/8" is as-strong as 3/4" Stable Braid!
 
Drenaline has some bounce for sure. I don’t like it for SRT does just fine doubled rope.

I love using climbing lines for rigging. But it is important to know what and how to use them. Often they are stiffer and have tighter covers, perhaps less energy absorbing characteristics.
I’d advise for controlled speed lines or any zip/speed line application start super small. The forces involved can get you into trouble quick. It can be hard to estimate sag in the line after it’s been loaded thus defeating the purpose of the speed line.
The control line does t see half the weight, the main line needs to be plenty strong, but more importantly your anchors need to be bulletproof.
The ground anchor starting out should be just a groundie holding the end of the line without a MA or any friction. This allows an overload system, you drag the groundie 20’ you overloaded the system
 
eyehearttrees said:
Thanks for the thorough reply! I'm very happy I made this thread because I'd thought I was on-point for my next purchase (a real rigging-line) but am unable to figure-out why you (and someone else) are recommending I get this True Blue? If buying a line for rigging I'm confused for 2 reasons, 1st is why to buy a climb-line as a rigging line at all (I get the idea of using your old climb-line, but to buy one for rigging seems silly - again I'm N00b so just want to understand!), 2nd is that I'm hearing you guys recommend this when, in my mind, I'm thinking "should I get the 5/8", or 3/4", Polydyne?" (the 5/8" polydyne is as strong as 3/4" Stable Braid!)

If the polydyne is/was my next intended purchase, am I correct in thinking I can use it for everything IE that, sure, a lighter line would be more convenient, but the big Polydyne line can handle everything and, afterwards, I'll get a lighter-duty rigging line (for convenience when doing smaller stuff, as well as having another line for 2-rope rigging operations like drifting or controlled speedlines) Put another way, Are there any drawbacks to simply 'jumping-ahead' and getting a ~20k MBS line?

And re selling the Safebloc (got it for $65, thing looks un-touched I suspect it was a demo unit), and getting a minimalistic rigging package, I'm confused here because from my view it'd be insane to sell the Safebloc, the way I see it (and am hoping for corrections/suggestions of course!!) is that I'm very close to a better-than-minimal setup, am thinking all I really need now is:
- heavy rigging line (5/8" or 3/4" polydyne),
- a length of 3/4" tenex to make a loopie or dead-eye for the Safebloc, and
- a portawrap (although this isn't 'needed' so much as "it's nice to have", I'd probably buy it with the polydyne to ensure I never take trunk-wraps with my new bull rope though!)

^that's a touch over $300 and if I'm understanding correctly I'd be able to do any single-line rigging with that (will need another rigging-line to do drifts or controlled-speedlines but that line can come later)

Thanks again for the reply, would love to hear your thoughts on that ^ because in my mind I was just a few hundred from a solid setup, the idea of losing the Safebloc to get a minimum setup seems a step backwards (as does acquiring True Blue for purposes of rigging)
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The quick answer, and I may expand on it later if needed, the safebloc is great although I don't personally own one. I only suggested selling it and getting a rope suitable for natural crutch because you seem to be on a budget. Most guys get a large rigging kit one piece at a time over the years. As for climbing lines for rigging lines, a rope is only a rope until you give it a purpose. there have been guys who have climbed on stable braid and a lot of rigging on 12 and 16 strands. I personally bought both my true blue (12 strand) and my Samson Hawkeye (16 strand) for rigging purposes and I tend to use them more often than my stable braid.
 
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At the end of 2015 I caught a sale on Yale XTC 16 and bought two 150' hanks in the Fire color scheme, and a 200' hank in the Eclipse color scheme. All for rigging. I tend to use the 12-strand ropes the most, with the notion that I'll wear out the cheapest ropes, first. So, I still have one of the 150' Fire hanks and the 200' hank of Eclipse that have only been used a couple of times.

I've got a job coming up soon that will require them, so I've been pretty much getting the stuff I'll need ready... and testing the setups on my own trees. I like the added friction these ropes give me in the Rig 'N Wrench, and they're stronger. I think I paid about 80 cents/foot for these ropes with a discount. All of them have sewn tight eyes on both ends.

I do a lot of solo work, so I really love this setup:

RnW-Eclipse.webp
 
JeffGu said:
At the end of 2015 I caught a sale on Yale XTC 16 and bought two 150' hanks in the Fire color scheme, and a 200' hank in the Eclipse color scheme. All for rigging. I tend to use the 12-strand ropes the most, with the notion that I'll wear out the cheapest ropes, first. So, I still have one of the 150' Fire hanks and the 200' hank of Eclipse that have only been used a couple of times.

I've got a job coming up soon that will require them, so I've been pretty much getting the stuff I'll need ready... and testing the setups on my own trees. I like the added friction these ropes give me in the Rig 'N Wrench, and they're stronger. I think I paid about 80 cents/foot for these ropes with a discount. All of them have sewn tight eyes on both ends.

I do a lot of solo work, so I really love this setup:

View attachment 62950
Click to expand...

Love this guy's setups.. very purpose built designs to enable solo adventures, yet still modular with ability to multi-purpose hardware elsewhere without having to cut or destroy anything..

Jeff, you get your hands on the newer ISC rig & wrench yet?
 
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