About those mid-ties...

Frax

Frax

Participating member
Location
Expat now in Chapel Hill, NC by way of Calgary, Al
In a bygone day in a distant land I was following a heated argument about using mid-ties, or "near balance point ties" instead of butt ties as the preferred way to tie off a limb. I wish I could remember the points raised.
I don't think I've ever used one, at least on a piece of any significant length and I can think of only one reason to use one, but I won't muddy the waters by saying.
So... mid-ties instead butt ties, why would you use one?
 
monkeylove said:
Landing or swing zone issues. Bringing it down in a more controlled manner from the release of the limb immediately.
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Every time I see a piece mid-tied (say in a video) it swings around wildly. I'm not seeing how it improves control. That's the main thing I don't like about it. I like rigging to be really quiet with no drama.
I understand about less force but I never cut such a big piece that I'm testing my WLL.
The one thing that would make me want to use a mid tie is when I want a piece to come down butt first but I can't tip tie it.

I'm still not getting why a mid tie is a preferred go-to over a butt tie in an average limb removal situation.
 
Levi.CO said:
This vid has a nice mix of all 3 methods. The mid tie can make it easier on the ground man landing pieces too.


Edit, oops forgot link!
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Very well put Levi. Frax, even without a winching bollard you can achieve control with a mid/tip tie and butt tie, allowing larger let downs. Sometimes a cut-n-peel works just as well as a butt tie and mid combo. Stay safe.
 
Don't the rest of you guys run into horizontal limbs over (houses, wires, sheds, swing sets) the way we do? We have at least 1 per week. If we tip tied it, the butt would strike the house. Butt tie, the tip would strike the house. But with a mid tie, close to the balance point, you can take the entire limb and drift it safely over the target.
 
Jeff said:
Don't the rest of you guys run into horizontal limbs over (houses, wires, sheds, swing sets) the way we do? We have at least 1 per week. If we tip tied it, the butt would strike the house. Butt tie, the tip would strike the house. But with a mid tie, close to the balance point, you can take the entire limb and drift it safely over the target.
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That's where I like a mid or tip tie with a butt tie. Total control. I used this method many times. One incident was a 8-10" but dia. with a level horizontal stretch of 40 plus feet end to end. I cut it loose and it sat there almost like it was still attached.
 
96coal449 said:
That's where I like a mid or tip tie with a butt tie. Total control. I used this method many times. One incident was a 8-10" but dia. with a level horizontal stretch of 40 plus feet end to end. I cut it loose and it sat there almost like it was still attached.
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That's something we've done, but there's always a tag line or second line involved somewhere. Like you say, total control.
 
Frax said:
Every time I see a piece mid-tied (say in a video) it swings around wildly. I'm not seeing how it improves control. That's the main thing I don't like about it. I like rigging to be really quiet with no drama.
I understand about less force but I never cut such a big piece that I'm testing my WLL.
The one thing that would make me want to use a mid tie is when I want a piece to come down butt first but I can't tip tie it.

I'm still not getting why a mid tie is a preferred go-to over a butt tie in an average limb removal situation.
Click to expand...

It definitely looks pretty wild sometimes but all that motion happens in a fairly small amount of space if you hit the balance point. With a tip or but tie the piece moves through a larger swath of vertical space. I mid tie more often than not but its most effective/valuable when vertical space is limited as stated above.
 
Long ivy laden pine limb over a plastic shed on thursday. Tip tie with the rnw and base tie off another tree inside the yard we were working on. Cut, stayed level, kicked the butt off the cut and it floated rite into the yard we were working, over the fence and plastic shed. All clear, no damage! Gotta love two ties or a spider leg. I found this much easier than a spider leg because I already had the rigging set for load transfer of the trunk wood and there was no margin for error with a poorly set balancer. Mid tie with a perfect balance is an amazing skill. I've found my judgement to be about 50/50 on a perfect balance. I'd rather roll on the 100% and take the chance when there is nothing I can crush during practice time. Ya feel me?
 
Frax said:
That's something we've done, but there's always a tag line or second line involved somewhere. Like you say, total control.
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Yea, let down towards tip and butt tie is 2nd let down and can be slipped off the stub to become a tag.
 
Butt ties can't be held up by a pre tensioned line. This is helpful when you want the ground guy to be able to control the speed of which the pieces hinges off the notch.
That wording sounds weird when i read it.
Frax this might not help the argument for mid ties if one finds it unsafe practice, but the ground man can also support the limb until a climber moves away, then begin to put rope into the system to get the piece to begin to hinge over.

Another thing is if you tie a piece when the rope is closest to plum where it's tied to the piece it will minimize crazy swings.

Definitely know what your saying, I learned thru watching my own footage how crazy some pieces swung around cuz I tied them dumb
 
CutHighnLetFly said:
Butt ties can't be held up by a pre tensioned line. This is helpful when you want the ground guy to be able to control the speed of which the pieces hinges off the notch.
That wording sounds weird when i read it.
Frax this might not help the argument for mid ties if one finds it unsafe practice, but the ground man can also support the limb until a climber moves away, then begin to put rope into the system to get the piece to begin to hinge over.

Another thing is if you tie a piece when the rope is closest to plum where it's tied to the piece it will minimize crazy swings.

Definitely know what your saying, I learned thru watching my own footage how crazy some pieces swung around cuz I tied them dumb
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You have any of that footage available for our viewing?
 
Frax said:
Every time I see a piece mid-tied (say in a video) it swings around wildly. I'm not seeing how it improves control. That's the main thing I don't like about it. I like rigging to be really quiet with no drama.
I understand about less force but I never cut such a big piece that I'm testing my WLL.
The one thing that would make me want to use a mid tie is when I want a piece to come down butt first but I can't tip tie it.

I'm still not getting why a mid tie is a preferred go-to over a butt tie in an average limb removal situation.
Click to expand...


I'd almostthink this was a troll comment if I didn't know you better... The near balance point tie off does offer much more control aand slower movement when applied properly... I think it may be a matter of definitions.. Near balance point refers near the balance point but not quite to it, so it should not come down butt first.. tat's a tip tie.. I don;t like the way they swing and helicopter either.. there are a lot of videos showing that sort of rigging by seasoned pros and I never understood why... especially when clearance is not an issue...
 
When people start rigging big limb I don't think they should guess the balance point of a branch , because they might get their teeths smak by the butt after the lever effect, if they are not on the sweet spot...Much more control with a spider leg or a DMM hub with a few slings , in my opinion this technique shine when the large section got different branch going in every direction. In a normal scenario I butt tie all the time and my face is still pretty nice...
 
96coal449 said:
You have any of that footage available for our viewing?
Click to expand...
If you YouTube search Asprague Arbor you'll find me YouTube channel. My oldest videos will show more "learning moments" then the newer ones.
..... hopefully....
Honestly tho, using a GoPro has helped me learn a lot because I can analyze everything I do, climbing, rigging, and cutting.
Now that I'm thinking too, balance point rigging is better for logs on decurrent trees because there is less shock loading or load catching by the rigging system.
Eric Whipple and I believe it was Mac Daddy as well both explained this very clearly at n.e. grows one year
.,.or was it at tcia Hartford? Wherever it happened, it happened
 
So for me, if your teying to control which way the peice swings, and it is horizontal, by tying near the balance point, the groundie has some control over the peice and can keep it from breaking off the hinge to early, basically holding it up almost while the hinge is established and then lowering it off into the face. When tying at the butt, the groundie has no control and you pretty much are limited to how much you can guide the peice with a face cut. I just feel you have more control of the peice when you find the mid point.
 
treebing said:
So for me, if your teying to control which way the peice swings, and it is horizontal, by tying near the balance point, the groundie has some control over the peice and can keep it from breaking off the hinge to early, basically holding it up almost while the hinge is established and then lowering it off into the face. When tying at the butt, the groundie has no control and you pretty much are limited to how much you can guide the peice with a face cut. I just feel you have more control of the peice when you find the mid point.
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Well put..

Mark Chisholm explained the concept to me in about 2002 at a workshop, but I didn't REALLY "get it" until I saw it in action more than a few times by running ropes fopr John Grier, who was a master at picking the balance point of big limbs..
 
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