Wow......Arborist Ethics in the UK!

[Mark Chisholm]

To be honest Kevin, I have been more inclined to do some type of corrective pruning or suggest removal. Re-topping seems like adding insult to injury to me. I'm all for leaving as many trees as possible, but sometimes you have to think that starting over with a new tree, in a better location and the proper mentality for the owner is the best solution.

 

[Colin]

In our standards here trees in orchards and trees for fruit production etc are exempt because the pruning on those trees is pretty harsh and required for fruit production. Mind you that the trees also have a limited life span and are on a replacement schedule.

I dont know how big your Mulberry trees get but here I would call them a large shrub, I don't think I've ever seen one larger than about 15'. In fact the back of our neibs place has a pretty good example of what they're like so here's a pic.

As you can see the branches are too long and hanging, I think it's been topped before around waist height but cannot confirm it. Even with the ones that haven't been topped they get all long and hanging like this.

So what would you all do to this now? Remember over here it's a fruit tree and classified a shrub in my books. I would say do what you want it's not really a significant tree that's going to grow 50' epicormics that'll take your house out.

 

[Al57]

Quote Ekka***I dont know how big your Mulberry trees get but here I would call them a large shrub, I don't think I've ever seen one larger than about 15'. In fact the back of our neibs place has a pretty good example of what they're like so here's a pic.***

Well I've got one most likely about 45 feet tall in the front of my house.It got zapped with the ice last winter thus causing old Al to have to shinny up in the danged thing,saw in hand .

 

[Mark Chisholm]

We have some that are over 3'diameter and not super tall but over three times what you say.

 

[Stumper]

[ QUOTE ]
In our standards here trees in orchards and trees for fruit production etc are exempt because the pruning on those trees is pretty harsh and required for fruit production.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, The harsh pruning of fruit trees IS NOT required for best fruit production. The reason that orchards get hacked is:A. Most orchardists don't know any better.
B Orchardists want ease of harvest.
C. Most orchardists don't know what they are doing.

Yes , I know that I'm repeating myself.

Regarding Mulberries-Th ewhites and reds are strong compartmentalizers. Topping them sucks hard but they don't tend to become rotten hazards easily.

 

[Bergsteiger]

It still continues to amaze me how many companies around here openly advertise topping as one of their services.

 

[Colin]

Gee, 45' mulberry trees with 3' dia bases. Do they get all long and hang like that?

But have a read of this link toward the bottom, recommends root severence and branch bending to produce fruit.

http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s984425.htm
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Here's an extract from another site about how some trees require pruning for production

At one extreme are trees such as peach and nectarine that only bear fruit on stems that grew the previous season, so they need fairly severe annual pruning to stimulate a flush of vigorous new shoots for the next year's crop. Citrus trees only need minimal (Renewable) pruning as the more leaves that are on a citrus tree, the larger and more numerous the fruit. Trees such as Figs and grapes need a more specialised type of pruning.

http://www.daleysfruit.com.au/fruit%20pages/pruning.htm

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Cherries for example bare fruit on older wood, and need little pruning apart from the removal of dead or diseased wood - whereas peaches bare fruit on the previous years laterals and should be pruned to encourage new growth for the following years crop.

http://home.vtown.com.au/~dbellamy/fruit/apple1.html

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Mangoes flower on the growth from the previous season on the outside of the tree.

http://www.greengold.com.au/greengold/CARENOTES/CARENOTES/mango.htm

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Around these parts they pretty well cut wherever it suits them. But our fruit trees here are mango, pawpaw, avacado and clients often want these kept low for getting the fruit off. If you did target cuts and went to standard you'd have a darn big tree, I try to balance it a little, a few target cuts for structure and a few stubs preferably keeping cuts under say 4" dia ... it's a tough thing when you mainly look after amenity trees not fruit trees. I always ask the purpose of the pruning ... for fruit or for looks etc as some people don't care about trying to pick the fruit ... just let it fall off and rot! That's if the bats dont get it.

In commercial mango orchards they shear the canopy to keep it in check and get plenty of fruit.

But if I rocked up to an 80' veteran mango tree and they wanted it pruned for fruit production down to 20' high ... I'd walk as you have some massive ugly wounds on every branch, hideous. It's a tough balance when the trees are getting big, lot easier to keep a small tree small and productive.

Oh, I dont count banana's as a tree, you know how they harvest and prune those eh?

 

[Colin]

I found this on the net, pretty good news for London's trees.

http://www.london.ca/Cityhall/CorpServices/CityClerks/bylaws/boulevard_tree.pdf

 

[TreeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, The harsh pruning of fruit trees IS NOT required for best fruit production. The reason that orchards get hacked is:
A. Most orchardists don't know any better.
B Orchardists want ease of harvest.
C. Most orchardists don't know what they are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've worked for a few orchardist and my experience has been a lot different than Stumpers. I've found most orchardist know a lot more about what they are doing pertaining to fruit production and orchard tree health than most arborist.

Some of what arborist may see as abuse is pruning for:
1) Light penetration
2) Spray penetration
3) Air circulation for disease control
4) Fruit size
5) Releasing suppressed dormant fruit spurs
6) Access for people and equipment for harvesting
7) Access for equipment for spraying pesticides, fungicides and chemical fruit thinners.
8) Access for equipment for planting and mowing cover crops.

Orchard production is very labor intensive. Most fruit cultivars are surpassed by superior cultivars in very short time frames. Keeping up with market pressures means most orchards get bull dozed and replanted with superior cultivars way before the trees suffer or die from what looks like pruning abuse to the casual observer.

 

[R_Schra]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, The harsh pruning of fruit trees IS NOT required for best fruit production. The reason that orchards get hacked is:A. Most orchardists don't know any better.
B Orchardists want ease of harvest.
C. Most orchardists don't know what they are doing.



[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure the orchandist know what they do! They earn a living with fruit so why would they prune with bad fruit production as result?

As i see it,

A; pruning for space in the tree so fruit can develop without getting damaged by to close branches.

B; direct growth into the fruit instead of thickining and longer branches.

C; With opening the tree also get fruit in the inner crown and therefore better use of space.

D; with pruned (smaller) trees more trees the acre and more production.

E; more space in the crown is more air movement and that give less (and better to control)infections

F; as you said, easier fruit picking.

All those thing are to improve fruit production and also getting a good quality. better fruit that sells then much more (smaller/damaged)fruit you cant get rid of.

The pruning is one thing to get quality fruit. Very different ways of crafting are used to to improve production. Like seedling roots, grafted stem from a selected species to control growth of the upper grafted fruit carrying branches.

[edit] sorry to partly repeat you Treeco

 

[Al57]

Gee, 45' mulberry trees with 3' dia bases. Do they get all long and hang like that?<Quote,Ekka.
Actually that is the broken top ,hanging,in that picture.Mulberries are considered a nuisance in these parts and are not cultivated.The danged birds eat the ripe fruit then make bombing runs on your freshly washed car,house or as it is sometimes,people,yuck.

A little note on fruit trees.I have seen apple trees split in two from an abundance of heavy fruit.Most of the orchards around here keep the trees at about 15 to 18 feet,for control of loads and ease of harvest

 

[Al57]

Hmm,I put in the wrong picture,try this one

 

[treebing]

Mulberry trees are one of my favorite tres to prune in general. They like to grow real heavy and break and split so it is very rewarding to thin a mulberry and bring it back to where they wont self destruct. They can be a lot of work. But they look soo good when cleaned up. It seems to me that the male trees here gets huge while the female fruit bearing trees are smaller. I dont know if that is a rule or just happenstance that I have observed. A large male can grow across three or four yards. They grow more horizontal than vertical.

I think it is amazing how many customers dont even know that the fruit is edible, makes great jam and pie, and is fun to eat while climbing. They are great climbing trees for kids and rec climbing. Mulberry also makes wonderful firewood. It grows in unique shapes and sizes. Its tough as hell, can withstand jacked up conditions, the color of leaves is very atractive, and if so desired, it can be sculptured and shaped to fit different needs. A community garden near my house took a bunch of weed mulberries and braided the branches into a awesome canopy of edible goodness. I shall try to get a picture.

One of the reasons I left my last company is that as a rule he advised his customers that the mulberry was a weed tree and should be exterminated. A more desirable tree should replace it. Almost every tree company in the area regards them as a weed tree or a nuisance. Mulberry, boxelder, ailanthus, as a general rule, are canidates for removal. I find that philosophy distasteful. I also find clover and dandilions in lawns to be attractive, which is heresy.

 

[Colin]

Hey, what do you think of this UK pruning schedule I found, you just choose which one you want. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Colin]

MB, thank you for allowing the thread to develop on what is hallowed ground to many in the industry. Your moderation so far has been great. And providing everybody access to read the forums regardless of being members or lurkers or former members or whatever ... good on you.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks brother! I try my best! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Mr_Ed]

Eric, your a sh!t stirrer. sold your company yet?

 

[TreeCo]

Crikeys!

I heard work was slow over there.

 

[Lazarus2]

I'm with TreeCo & Co on this one.

This attitude stinks and its the single biggest problem we have as an industry.

Its interesting that some like 'Mr.Ed' also condone poor working practice and show a horrific lack of skill in the tree - so obviously at odds with the high standards required to operate in the UK.

At least now the Health & Safety Executive have evidence to investigate and prosecute, courtesy of his video antics and posts.

What a disgrace.

Certainly seems lke the lunatics are taking over the asylum here.......?

 

[Mr_Ed]

Hey! I resent that! Horrific lack of skill?

 

[Colin]

[ QUOTE ]
Eric, your a sh!t stirrer. sold your company yet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's my new plan, I'll then just work for the boss and I can hack anything anytime and no worries, I'm just doing what I'm told! Some sort of Tree Diplomatic Immunity. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Remind you of anyone?

Good on you Lazarus2, I can see by your website that you're a serious player, nice site and some very nice achievements there.

I notice training is also on the agenda along with links to HSE. Good on you, spread the good word.