Wow......Arborist Ethics in the UK!

[treebing]

I want to make it clear that I am not a topper. I dont sell it, I dont condone it, and I agree that in most cases it sucks. But I do believe in the slow removal of a tree. that nine years is nine years. Trees get older, they lose limbs, they develop serious decay regardless of topping or not. They get nailed by storms. The life of the tree is shortened when this happens, But the tree is not dead. Trees have function regardless of their handicaps. Maybe I am some what of a right to lifer.
I also know what bears on my conscience.

dropping an old red oak that had died on my grandmothers property. I chopped it up into firewood and did not harvest any lumber. I think about what a nice table it would have made.

To continue on that note. while working for companies, i have toted thousands of pounds of wood and chips to the landfill.

I have removed trees that were beautiful trees because my boss told me to. Many of them were carted to the landfill. That wood was referred to as waste.

I have Driven huge trucks around blowing smoke everywhere, chugging up diesel and gas, making the earth hotter and the trees sicker. I have chipped whole trees, whole lots. I have seen oil drain out on the ground under these trucks, transmission fluid, antifreeze, battery acid.

There are a lot of things that bear on my conscience. The few times that I have made what could be reffered to as topping cuts to prolong the life of some tree a minute, do not give me much regret.

My point is, I think that the topping issue has become the ethics issue in arboriculture today. All the bumper stickers etc. I think we need to reevaluate our priorities when it comes to ethics.

 

[guymayor]

notahacker, that's a great philosophy.

kevin, as a radical capitalist libertarian, I disagree with your notion that respecting money means disrespecting trees. Quite the opposite; trees deliver value that is measurable economically; see the ucdavis site, americanforests.org, etc.

A lot of this is knowing your species, as ANSI calls for. Red oaks are more traumatized than white oaks, etc. kevin I agree we need to take care of the bottom half of the tree, but you may want to take a closer look at what you do to the top half.

Very often a client will be content with a respectful reduction rather than topping, when they are shown the difference.

 

[Colin]

Jason, in that poll I think there should have been another option of ...

... Partially to blame.

The reason being the climber who decided to go past the defect and rig etc from there also made that decision. Part of being good at your job is recognizing and assessing hazards.

I know there are instances of MUST where equipment cant access the tree. These are dangerous situations where a highly experienced crew needs to do the work. No shock loading, tie and rigging points seperated, multiple pulleys to strengthen the tree etc.

Good pics TreeCo , have you seen my latest ad? Here's a 1mb pic, and I've highlighted in yellow all the "treeloppers" including the media that heads it's column up inappropriately.

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/funstuff/pressad.JPG

If we are truely to change the industry then it's the ideal place to start ... ourselves and our business names.

 

[Jamin_Mayer]

Ekka:

You have a long road ahead of you. It will take time, but you will see a turn around. In the tree service section of the Longmont Qwest Dex phone book (where I have an ad) there is only one guy who still advertises "topping." He is one defensive S.O.B. too!

 

[Eric_E]

Dan,

Creative use of light in your photos.

/forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[TreeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
Good pics TreeCo , have you seen my latest ad? Here's a 1mb pic, and I've highlighted in yellow all the "treeloppers" including the media that heads it's column up inappropriately.

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/funstuff/pressad.JPG<br />
[/ QUOTE ]

Ekka your yellow pages look like the ones here in the US looked like 15 years ago. Of course there are still a few companies advertising topping but no where near as many as in the past.

Around Atlanta we still see lots of climbing spikes used to get into the tree for trimming. Almost always spiked trims are not only spiked but also poor quality work. I think a lot of spike climbers don't know how to get out to the tips on a rope. I've hired a few myself and all they used the rope for was to get back down out of the tree.

Keep fighting the good fight. I saw more disturbing pics today of what some climbers will do to trees just for the money. Shame, shame, shame.

 

[TreeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
Dan,

Creative use of light in your photos.

/forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

 

[tnttree]

Ekka, treeco is right that yellow page ad looks like about 15 years ago for MN also. Now we contend with the Bogus "certified" tree guys advertising. Keep up the good fight for Austrailian Trees!

 

[Colin]

Now that has me wondering.

How do those spikes only tree climbers get out to the tips?

Like I need the high point to get out there. If the branch was horizontal what do they do, crawl along it, go under it?

I've never really seen it done but been told they just hang around the trunk a lot and cut everything from there.

 

[rollacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of spike climbers don't know how to get out to the tips on a rope. I've hired a few myself and all they used the rope for was to get back down out of the tree

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow talk about double standards hiring 'spikers' then hey ??you must of otherwise how else would you know they only use a rope to 'DECEND THE TREE' the tree must have been spiked all over.. /forum/images/graemlins/aaa.gif

Instead of critisizing 'proffesional arborists' i'd keep focused on your own biz if I were you...

Iv'e never hired a 'spiking trimmer' in all my life and never will /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[TreeCo]

[ QUOTE ]


Wow talk about double standards hiring 'spikers' then hey ??you must of otherwise how else would you know they only use a rope to 'DECEND THE TREE' the tree must have been spiked all over.. /forum/images/graemlins/aaa.gif

Instead of critisizing 'proffesional arborists' i'd keep focused on your own biz if I were you...

Iv'e never hired a 'spiking trimmer' in all my life and never will /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No double standard here. If you read that into my posting either I mis typed or you mis read.

Not once did they spike a trim for me but they sure had before I hired them and I'm sure they did after I let them go. All they ever did was removals and watching their lack of rope climbing ability was painful even on removals. Quite often as I'm sure you do on a removal we take down as much of the top as needed and then drop the rest of the tree.

Good try though and thanks for the input. It's good to see your attitude towards trees.

Dan

 

[rollacosta]

Yeah yeah so you say..

 

[TreeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah yeah so you say..

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant it. It really is good to see your attitude towards trees. It must get lonely over there.

Are you going to stand up for your mate Ekka at the TreeHouse? Or let him get fed to the wolves?/forum/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

Dan

 

[tophopper]

[ QUOTE ]
Now that has me wondering.

How do those spikes only tree climbers get out to the tips?

Like I need the high point to get out there. If the branch was horizontal what do they do, crawl along it, go under it?

I've never really seen it done but been told they just hang around the trunk a lot and cut everything from there.

[/ QUOTE ]



Thats exactly right! They dont get out to the tips, they only cut what they can reach from the bole of the tree.

 

[rollacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah yeah so you say..

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant it. It really is good to see your attitude towards trees. It must get lonely over there.

Are you going to stand up for your mate Ekka at the TreeHose? Or let him get fed to the wolves?/forum/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

Dan

[/ QUOTE ]


I rarely BS!! as I said I will top trees on the very very rare occasion a client won't listern to proffesional advice.I can count on one hand the amount of tree's i've topped over the years and even then I try and cut back to a node or coller.

You and others are blowing the whole topping thing way out of proportion..

As for Ekka he must have plenty of money and enough work to give away,I do give the guy plenty of respect though and I do support him and anyone who try's to promote higher standards of arboriculture..

But as you posted in the first post of this thread ,I don't careless if a tree owner has to live with a topped monstrosity..

 

[TreeCo]

[ QUOTE ]


You and others are blowing <font color="red">the whole topping thing</font> way out of proportion..

As for Ekka he must have plenty of <font color="red">money and enough work</font> to give away,I do give the guy plenty of respect though and I do support him and anyone who try's to promote higher standards of arboriculture..


[/ QUOTE ]

Rollacosta I'm glad to hear you have topped so few trees. That is great!

I changed the font to <font color="red">red </font> in your above quoted post to highlight that you seem to be admittting it's done <font color="red">for the money</font>. <font color="red">The money</font> is a big part of the <font color="red">topping</font> problem for sure.

Dan

 

[Jason_Morrow]

hmmm? Interesting debate. My two cents is that this is more a topic about self-respect than respect for trees. My grandpops was and my pops still is a contractor. I was raised believing that what you do reflects what kind of man you are. Either you take short cuts or you don't. You perform your craft to standard, or you don't.It really doesn't matter if you're building a $30.00 set of shelves or pruning a 200 year old oak. You have to determine for yourself the value of your name. Sure there are going to be those rare instances when "topping" is in order for health or safety, but it is always part of a long-term, multi-visit process, ie. restoring storm or lightning damage. The question is: are you "topping" because it's the right way to do your job, or are you topping because the price is right?

 

[Mark Chisholm]

Well said Jason.

 

[glens]

Yes, well said. And don't forget that standards are fluid over time as knowledge increases.

 

[treebing]

that is well put into perpective jason. I have been thinking about this the last couple of days. When it comes to ethics, intention is the main criteria. When you do something you know is wrong but you dont care.

As for the topping debate itself goes. I have been driving around west asheville N.C. for the last few days and topping has been ingrained in the culture for a long time now.

I have been curious to hear other peoples reactions. Would you retop a tree? I know for a fact that many people feel that topped trees are a scar on the earth and should be sentenced to die. I know a lot of times the decay and poor attachments on a topped tree make remediation sort of a joke. There are no branches secure enough to leave. Sometimes the only answer it seems is to retop the tree, or complete removal.

I feel in some ways it is unethical to tell the customer that the tree is hazardous and should be removed. Why not just retop it. The customer still wants a tree.

An example of this is a rental property I was living in in Detroit. There was an mulberry tree that had been topped at about 15 feet, by someone long ago. It had always been a weed tree, grew straight out the fence line. Of course it had sprouted out like crazy, into the roof, awful. I couldn't bear to lose the shade of that overgown bush. I retopped it. Cutting to nodes when I could, but knowing full well, the tree would send out shoots from everywhere regardless. I did it a few times the duration of the time that I lived there.

Recently the owner of the house called me back to do the same again. That mulberry isnt going to die very soon. It is a pleasant over sized bush now. It is also a safe little climbing tree for neighborhood kids. Ailanthus trees can also be made into nice medium sized bushes. Everybody always wants them cutdown, weed tree this weed tree that. They are just trash cut down. Nobody even wants it for fire wood.
People automatically assume when the discussion of topping comes up, it is in reference to 120 foot oak trees or beautiful, specimens of nature. I agree that it is a problem, and was thus happy to see the article about the car dealership that was fined. Beautiful trees are under threat by people who hack and spike. However, I think that in the fervor over tree topping, it has caused people to treat trees that have been topped or trees that would only have an option to continue living if it were topped as "that tree should be removed." That tree is ugly it should be cut down.
I know this is the case for many tree people, even good ones. They will walk onto a persons property and sentence every runted, stunted no good tree to death. I dont like that mentality really. Oh who cares, the tree is only 20 years old, its just a weed tree, that tree has been topped, that tree needs to go.
For a lot of the runted stunted no good who cares if they live or die trees, topping is just another tool, to be used sparingly, for how people can get along with their greenery.