Wow......Arborist Ethics in the UK!
- Thread starter TreeCo
- Start date
- Location
- Denver, Colorado
Listen, I read the first couple of pages of this thread before I couldn't read the rest.
I think were missing the point here.
Topping should not be weighed by money or the job, we should all educate the customer to the proper way of pruning. Now I myself was not able to educate the customer enough for her to let me prune the tree the right way (maybe she was too old) but I probably just didn't try hard enough. Anyway, if we simply insisted, and I mean all of us, that trees be trimmed the proper way, eventually that would be the norm.
Now think of this. Say you crumple and decide to top that tree. Other neighbors see what you have done. They tell the homeowners that it looks like cr@p and that it was pruned improperly. (the neighbors have been educated, btw they could be friends family, whatever).
Now the customer will never hire you again, because you pruned their tree wrong, neither will the neighbors, (and friends) and everyone gets upset because you topped a tree.
The customer is truely at fault here, but this could lead to legal problems as well as you were the one who topped the tree that lead to property damage or someone getting hurt.
If you had advised the customer properly, in the end you would look like the good guy. And having stood by your ethics would make you a richer man.
Case and point. The lady I educated that refused to let me properly prune her tree, had another company come by and top her tree. Later, someone told her, prolly a friend that she trusted, that this was a bad practice. She called me back and had me prune the rest of her trees, saying that she valued my expertise and should have listened to me to begin with. I also ended up with six other jobs based on this one instance where I educated the customer, I refused and then was called back to properly prune her trees.
I think were missing the point here.
Topping should not be weighed by money or the job, we should all educate the customer to the proper way of pruning. Now I myself was not able to educate the customer enough for her to let me prune the tree the right way (maybe she was too old) but I probably just didn't try hard enough. Anyway, if we simply insisted, and I mean all of us, that trees be trimmed the proper way, eventually that would be the norm.
Now think of this. Say you crumple and decide to top that tree. Other neighbors see what you have done. They tell the homeowners that it looks like cr@p and that it was pruned improperly. (the neighbors have been educated, btw they could be friends family, whatever).
Now the customer will never hire you again, because you pruned their tree wrong, neither will the neighbors, (and friends) and everyone gets upset because you topped a tree.
The customer is truely at fault here, but this could lead to legal problems as well as you were the one who topped the tree that lead to property damage or someone getting hurt.
If you had advised the customer properly, in the end you would look like the good guy. And having stood by your ethics would make you a richer man.
Case and point. The lady I educated that refused to let me properly prune her tree, had another company come by and top her tree. Later, someone told her, prolly a friend that she trusted, that this was a bad practice. She called me back and had me prune the rest of her trees, saying that she valued my expertise and should have listened to me to begin with. I also ended up with six other jobs based on this one instance where I educated the customer, I refused and then was called back to properly prune her trees.
Mangoes
Participating member
- Location
- Greater Toronto Area
Good on you Bearclaw, very good post.
You would be shocked to see what goes on around here, it's OUT OF CONTROL!
But the one thing that seems a common denominator with the toppers is ... there's safety in numbers.
Birds of a feather flock together. They stick up for each other and the practice. What we need is a few failures, a few legal cases and fines.
The hacks are out numbering the good guys ... by a lot.
And when the ducky turns toxic let the ducky maker be prosecuted.
Self education and regulation doesn't work.
Imagine what the grand avenue of oaks would look like after a decent topping?
Around here large roadside camphor laurels were topped at around 10' to 15' high, through large dia limbs and rows of them look ugly ... that was the 70's and 80's standard practice. Now they dont do it and have tried to restore the crowns but it's damage done already.
You would be shocked to see what goes on around here, it's OUT OF CONTROL!
But the one thing that seems a common denominator with the toppers is ... there's safety in numbers.
Birds of a feather flock together. They stick up for each other and the practice. What we need is a few failures, a few legal cases and fines.
The hacks are out numbering the good guys ... by a lot.
And when the ducky turns toxic let the ducky maker be prosecuted.
Self education and regulation doesn't work.
Imagine what the grand avenue of oaks would look like after a decent topping?
Around here large roadside camphor laurels were topped at around 10' to 15' high, through large dia limbs and rows of them look ugly ... that was the 70's and 80's standard practice. Now they dont do it and have tried to restore the crowns but it's damage done already.
[ QUOTE ]
I have only topped one tree in two years and that was because half the canopy was knocked out in a wind storm.
That isn't topping...that is storm reconstruction. IN the end the tree may looked topped but you can't call it topping because your intentions when you started the job are different.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet if one of you guys posted a picture of that tree what would you think I had done? Topped it! Too bad I couldn't leave a large sticky note on the tree noting my good intentions. "Storm reconstruction" sounds like clever way to get around an absolute statement, "Topping Trees Is Bad!" It is all shades of gray.
Guys who look and sound very much like you or I have been telling people for ages that topping trees is OK; standard practice. Now we know better. What will we know in another 20 years? What are we telling people now that will be total BS later? We can't have it all right.
Here is another scenario for ethically unblemished arboristas: An older retired gentleman wants his tree topped in half. He has had it done repeatedly over the years. It has always grown out. You tell him that topping is bad for trees and tell him why. You describe crown reduction cuts and how they are healthier for the tree. He says he's an old man and he worries about the tree falling on the house and that he doesn't care if the tree lives or dies. You give him a price for removing the tree that he balks at because he is on a fixed income. What do you do?
I have only topped one tree in two years and that was because half the canopy was knocked out in a wind storm.
That isn't topping...that is storm reconstruction. IN the end the tree may looked topped but you can't call it topping because your intentions when you started the job are different.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet if one of you guys posted a picture of that tree what would you think I had done? Topped it! Too bad I couldn't leave a large sticky note on the tree noting my good intentions. "Storm reconstruction" sounds like clever way to get around an absolute statement, "Topping Trees Is Bad!" It is all shades of gray.
Guys who look and sound very much like you or I have been telling people for ages that topping trees is OK; standard practice. Now we know better. What will we know in another 20 years? What are we telling people now that will be total BS later? We can't have it all right.
Here is another scenario for ethically unblemished arboristas: An older retired gentleman wants his tree topped in half. He has had it done repeatedly over the years. It has always grown out. You tell him that topping is bad for trees and tell him why. You describe crown reduction cuts and how they are healthier for the tree. He says he's an old man and he worries about the tree falling on the house and that he doesn't care if the tree lives or dies. You give him a price for removing the tree that he balks at because he is on a fixed income. What do you do?
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
Here is another scenario for ethically unblemished arboristas: An older retired gentleman wants his tree topped in half. He has had it done repeatedly over the years. It has always grown out. You tell him that topping is bad for trees and tell him why. You describe crown reduction cuts and how they are healthier for the tree. He says he's an old man and he worries about the tree falling on the house and that he doesn't care if the tree lives or dies. You give him a price for removing the tree that he balks at because he is on a fixed income. What do you do?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yada yada yada....old monkey I run into those all the time but usually the old guy is terminally ill and topping his tree is his final wish and the world comes to an end next Friday.
Oh yeah and the kid needs shoes and you guys are tired of eating hamburger and you are going to use some of the money for your arborist certification! .
(cool, we have a bangtard smiley)
Here is another scenario for ethically unblemished arboristas: An older retired gentleman wants his tree topped in half. He has had it done repeatedly over the years. It has always grown out. You tell him that topping is bad for trees and tell him why. You describe crown reduction cuts and how they are healthier for the tree. He says he's an old man and he worries about the tree falling on the house and that he doesn't care if the tree lives or dies. You give him a price for removing the tree that he balks at because he is on a fixed income. What do you do?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yada yada yada....old monkey I run into those all the time but usually the old guy is terminally ill and topping his tree is his final wish and the world comes to an end next Friday.
Oh yeah and the kid needs shoes and you guys are tired of eating hamburger and you are going to use some of the money for your arborist certification! .
You missed the question Dan, it wasn't "Hey what's the most flippant response you can make to this post?" It was in fact it was "What would you do in this situation?"
If you have anything to teach others of us here on the internet boards, you are losing your opportunity by being arrogant and rude. I think that is a shame.
If you have anything to teach others of us here on the internet boards, you are losing your opportunity by being arrogant and rude. I think that is a shame.
on teh topping thread, saw a tree where the crown split last night, all lying in different directions, we all know topping is bad and this was a good example, i would have stopped and takena photo but i was a. drunk and b. on a bus
i'm sure the homeowners would say the tree was too tall and needs topped though.
it wa a whitebeam (Sorbis intermedia) and i'm sure it ws 'pruned' by a UK 'Arborist'
Jamie
i'm sure the homeowners would say the tree was too tall and needs topped though.
it wa a whitebeam (Sorbis intermedia) and i'm sure it ws 'pruned' by a UK 'Arborist'
Jamie
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
You missed the question Dan, it wasn't "Hey what's the most flippant response you can make to this post?" It was in fact it was "What would you do in this situation?"
[/ QUOTE ]
"He says he's an old man and he worries about the tree falling on the house and that he doesn't care if the tree lives or dies."
Old Monkey above is a given from your ethics question.
If a client says they don't care if the tree lives or dies from my prunning work I'm out of there, period. Someone else is going to have to do the work, my name is not going to be associated.
You missed the question Dan, it wasn't "Hey what's the most flippant response you can make to this post?" It was in fact it was "What would you do in this situation?"
[/ QUOTE ]
"He says he's an old man and he worries about the tree falling on the house and that he doesn't care if the tree lives or dies."
Old Monkey above is a given from your ethics question.
If a client says they don't care if the tree lives or dies from my prunning work I'm out of there, period. Someone else is going to have to do the work, my name is not going to be associated.
Thanks for the straight answer Dan.
I talked myself out of the job I mentioned, the customer wasn't interested in reduction cuts. To him I looked like a fool because he had had the same thing done to his tree many times over with no apparent down side. It is hard to tell people that even though it has worked for them you shouldn't do it.
On another tact, would it have been so bad to give an old man a good nights sleep? For all anyone knows my "storm reconstruction" tree was brutally topped but somehow that is OK to leave behind for customers to see. If I gave the customer what he wanted it would have looked the same.
I talked myself out of the job I mentioned, the customer wasn't interested in reduction cuts. To him I looked like a fool because he had had the same thing done to his tree many times over with no apparent down side. It is hard to tell people that even though it has worked for them you shouldn't do it.
On another tact, would it have been so bad to give an old man a good nights sleep? For all anyone knows my "storm reconstruction" tree was brutally topped but somehow that is OK to leave behind for customers to see. If I gave the customer what he wanted it would have looked the same.
TC
Participating member
[ QUOTE ]
AAAAHHHH...SOMEBODY MAKE IT STOP!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
As MasterBlaster once said, "Fcuk this thread and the horse it rode in on"
I assume he meant TreeCo riding on the back of Mr Ed!!??
What a disgusting, obnoxious, insulting little thread this post has become.
This thread is now the equivalent of a dead bloated carcass of an animal you see floating down some backwood river in the middle of Sh*tsville on its way to a toxic industrial polluted foul smelling lake.
I for one will never visit this cesspit of arboricultural bile ever again.
Filth.......utter Filth!
AAAAHHHH...SOMEBODY MAKE IT STOP!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
As MasterBlaster once said, "Fcuk this thread and the horse it rode in on"
I assume he meant TreeCo riding on the back of Mr Ed!!??
What a disgusting, obnoxious, insulting little thread this post has become.
This thread is now the equivalent of a dead bloated carcass of an animal you see floating down some backwood river in the middle of Sh*tsville on its way to a toxic industrial polluted foul smelling lake.
I for one will never visit this cesspit of arboricultural bile ever again.
Filth.......utter Filth!
It is so simple to get rid of nonsense.Click the user name and select the ignore functio
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n,they go away.
HomeTree Buzz SpotlightAbout Tree BuzzArticlesBuzz BoardGear UpX-Pert SpeakersLinksContact Us
Welcome Al57. [Logout] My Home · Main Index · Search · Active Topics
Who's Online · FAQ · User List · Calendar
Profile for TreeCo
Member # 105
Name
Title Buzzin' Hard
Total Posts 830
Homepage
Occupation Arborist
Hobbies
Location
Bio
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Registered on 04/12/02 12:00 PM
Send a private message | Add to address book | Show all user's posts | Stop ignoring this user | Return to Forum
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n,they go away.
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
LOL Al.
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*** You are ignoring this user ***
[/ QUOTE ]
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*** You are ignoring this user ***
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- Location
- The Great Pacific Northwest
[ QUOTE ]
AAAAHHHH...SOMEBODY MAKE IT STOP!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
But Leon... I have learned so much from Dan... here on the Buzz, and other sites as well!
He has made learning about tree related topics so easy for those of us (me) just getting started in the field. (that there is sarcasm...)
Thanks for everything you do Dan!!!
Gary
AAAAHHHH...SOMEBODY MAKE IT STOP!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
But Leon... I have learned so much from Dan... here on the Buzz, and other sites as well!
He has made learning about tree related topics so easy for those of us (me) just getting started in the field. (that there is sarcasm...)
Thanks for everything you do Dan!!!
Gary
Ekka,
i'm trying to decide weather your comment on coronet cuts was sarcastic or not.
Please enlighten me.
Jamie
i'm trying to decide weather your comment on coronet cuts was sarcastic or not.
Please enlighten me.
Jamie
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