Who The Hell Made SPRAT King?

chris_girard

Branched out member
Location
Gilmanton, N.H.
Seems like the tree care industry are not the only ones getting pressure from THE SPRAT organization to follow their methods for SRT work.

I have just come back from CA where I became certified as a High Angle Rope Tech. specializing in rock scaling rock slope inspections for DOT work.

They are having the same problems with SPRAT as we are. ALL their work is done SRT, with 2 points of contact on the same rope. NOT using 2 ropes. Their system is OSHA approved and specialized to their form of SRT work, just as our's is, only we follow the ANSI Z133.

We in the tree care industry MUST not fall (pun intended) to the pressure that SPRAT is putting on us!

Thoughts?
 
I really hope that this is not true that SPRAT would be placing pressure on any climbing industry (and I am pro SPRAT/IRATA). In what ways did you see pressure coming from them?

Also, what do you mean when you said two points of contact on the same rope? SPRAT was saying to do that?

It would be my goal that if SPRAT were to try and have any kind of influence with tree work that it would be positive and not in a "this is how its done in industrial settings, so this is how you SHALL do it in a tree." We all know that it is two different worlds with its own unique challenges.

Interesting though...... I will have to dig in on this one and call up some SPRAT board members and ask what the heck is going on!
 
From what I can glean the pressure isn't coming from SPRAT to influence tree climbing it's coming from tree climbers who feel that SPRAT-type guidelines should be followed for tree climbing.

See how the cart is trying to direct the horse?

Tree climbers would be well served to be familiar with rope access protocols. There are many parts that make sense and can be easily applied to tree climbing.

The biggest disconnect is the anchor points being used. There is NO way to quantify an anchor point in a tree. This is where art and science are needed in equal portions.

There are discussions going on about SRT in tree climbing needing to follow SPRAT/IRATA standards...but NOT applying this same standard to DdRT. HUH?! What's the difference? Basic misunderstanding is what it is...doubling the climbing rope vrs. anchoring it. Sheesh!
 
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From what I can glean the pressure isn't coming from SPRAT to influence tree climbing it's coming from tree climbers who feel that SPRAT-type guidelines should be followed for tree climbing.

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Tom, this may be the case in the tree care industry, but out in CA, it's the actual SPRAT guys that are putting the pressure on the other climbers.

Caltrans is way above other State DOT in their use of climbers. They have 3 separate and individual programs;

1) Structural (for bridges, buildings & towers) - SPRAT
2) Arboricultural (all tree work) - ANSI
3) High Scalers (all rock and slope work) -PCIA

It's the SPRAT crews that are trying to change the regulations to require all State climbers to use only their methods.

For those that have never heard of PCIA (not our TCIA), it's the Professional Climbing Instructor's Association. This is the certification that the High Scalers use.

Very good organization, here's their website:
http://www.pcia.us/
 
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...Tree climbers would be well served to be familiar with rope access protocols. There are many parts that make sense and can be easily applied to tree climbing...

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Tom, this is the same thing I have heard from others, usually preceded by, no need to reinvent the wheel.

Could you be more specific and site some examples?

David
 
David,

It would be hard to make a list...but let me mull on this for a while.

When I was first learning about SRT I read a lot, bought rope access, rescue and caving books. What I gleaned out of all of this is to be thorough, check and double check, find out what other similar practices can be emulated.

The Whistle Test is probably the most concrete thing that I can nail down right now. the rest are more thematic.

Edit: I got my first understanding of what effect rope stretch has on a fall. this is back in the good old days...ie...pre-Google where I had to go and buy books or search web pages.
 
We've got a good thing with the two SPRAT training companies in the province. We had them out to the BCTCC with a full training truss doing demonstrations and hanging out at the stations. There's lots to learn from each other and I'm pleased to say the future looks bright for folks on rope.
 
I would hate to think that a few with bad attitudes towards one side of climbing or the other would give the whole thing a bad name. I see this when I was Caving down in Puerto Rico, one of the climbers that thought caving was the "only way" that climbing should be done thought that SPRAT was a joke. Little did she know that SPRAT and IRATA in a large way came from caving. Even after being told that the only difference was a second line she still was ignorant to having more of an open mind.

If any of us truly want to further our craft then the natural thing would be to look and learn from other climbing trades. You may not be able to take every trick they have and use it but, it doesn't mean that it wont help at some point. Pick a book up and read it from time to time and open your mind to other trades. It can only make you better.
 
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If any of us truly want to further our craft then the natural thing would be to look and learn from other climbing trades. You may not be able to take every trick they have and use it but, it doesn't mean that it wont help at some point. Pick a book up and read it from time to time and open your mind to other trades. It can only make you better.

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Well stated and should be a mantra for anyone who goes verticle!

Tony
 
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If any of us truly want to further our craft then the natural thing would be to look and learn from other climbing trades. You may not be able to take every trick they have and use it but, it doesn't mean that it wont help at some point. Pick a book up and read it from time to time and open your mind to other trades. It can only make you better.

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Agreed, and that it why I am striving to learn as much as I can about the other rope trades such as SPRAT and PCIA.

Can we say the same about the way other rope trades look at tree climbing? I doubt it. All they seem to see is 1 rope+1 connection to rope = death wish.

Most that I have encountered have no idea what safe SRT rope use in trees is like, and they see us as cowboys on ropes.
 
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From what I can glean the pressure isn't coming from SPRAT to influence tree climbing it's coming from tree climbers who feel that SPRAT-type guidelines should be followed for tree climbing.

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Tom, this may be the case in the tree care industry, but out in CA, it's the actual SPRAT guys that are putting the pressure on the other climbers.

Caltrans is way above other State DOT in their use of climbers. They have 3 separate and individual programs;

1) Structural (for bridges, buildings & towers) - SPRAT
2) Arboricultural (all tree work) - ANSI
3) High Scalers (all rock and slope work) -PCIA

It's the SPRAT crews that are trying to change the regulations to require all State climbers to use only their methods.

For those that have never heard of PCIA (not our TCIA), it's the Professional Climbing Instructor's Association. This is the certification that the High Scalers use.

Very good organization, here's their website:
http://www.pcia.us/

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Theres potentially a lot of money to be made in training Chris....and if you had influence with ANSI, then, wow.

One of the things I dont the miss about the UK. Not that they took much money from me personally....I was able to stay below the radar for many years, but for bigger companies it was/is unavoidable....if you want to remain insured that is.

The training companies advise the HSE, (ANSI equivalent) on what is needed, who then make it law. Probably two of the worst examples are the requirement to 'pay' to have your climbing and rigging equipment inspected twice a year by a an inspector. This inspector becomes a qualified person by taking a days training on the subject. You cant inspect your own gear, you have to pay.

The most laughable of all is refresher training, that they are pushing for now. The idea that your certs (that you pay for) need to be refreshed. Apparently you need to be reminded of how to climb/ cut/ fall a tree, at your own expense of course.

I took the original Certs when they were first introduced about 20 years ago....and then the updated version probably 10 years after. The criteria on both occasions were laughable, but like I said, compulsory if you want to stay insured. With a few exceptions, most of the trainers I have come a cross are puss ies and frauds....but they found easy money in training, and are getting away with it.

Ive never heard of any Training society or organization who are voluntary....and the North American Tree care industry as a market obviously has massive potential, financially.

Treework's often a tough job, but its not an overly complicated one by any stretch....with common sense and a cool head being the workers best asset....not that you can be trained on either. Yet there's always a portion of individuals who seem to want to be told what they should be doing and how they should go about it. Just figure it out. Do your job....and dont let trouble through the door.
 
I make secrete that I am very pro training. Although I have to agree with Reg for the most part on what he stated. Most trainers are horrible at what they do( either with teaching or doing the job or worse BOTH!). There is great credited training out there though. Although there is great climbers out there that new guys can work for and learn from for the most part and lets face it the majority SUCK!!!! So if you want to go and learn how to climb and spend your money to do so do a good search for a good instructor and spend the money that it will cost! For god sakes though call out the bad trainers out there!
 
during my time being involved with the Z133 committee I haven't seen any influence from company agendas becoming part of the standard. The consensus part of the ANSI system seems to isolate it from that sort of influence.

Paolo Bavaresco gave me the same insights that Reg states about the HSE system. High potential put low implementation.
 
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during my time being involved with the Z133 committee I haven't seen any influence from company agendas becoming part of the standard. The consensus part of the ANSI system seems to isolate it from that sort of influence.

Paolo Bavaresco gave me the same insights that Reg states about the HSE system. High potential put low implementation.

[/ QUOTE ]. You should ask Paolo (off record) why he resigned, Tom.
 
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during my time being involved with the Z133 committee I haven't seen any influence from company agendas becoming part of the standard...

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Tom, when the members of the Z133 committee have a question on proper SRT-WP safe practices, who do they go to and ask for answers?

David
 
So far...this hasn't come up often. There are a couple of others on the committee, or who attend, who have enough knowledge to field the questions.

Up until now there hasn't been any groundswell to even address SRT in the Z133.

This is likely to change during the current revision.

Part of my assumed responsibility for being on the Z committee is to keep my constituents, the Boots in the Field, informed about what goes on.
 
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I know why Reg ;)

[/ QUOTE ] you first

[/ QUOTE ] pretty sure too, ironically, that the last (or. One of) thread paolo started was about training.
 
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I know why Reg ;)

[/ QUOTE ] you first

[/ QUOTE ] pretty sure too, ironically, that the last (or. One of) thread paolo started was about training.

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Yes, I know Paolo's reasons as well, but do not want to get into it on a public forum.

Reg, I'll be emailing you as I have some questions regarding HSE regulations...again not for the public.

In working for the DOT as an Civil Engineering Tech as well as running my own business on the side, I have to be careful about business, especially with governmental agencies.

Below is a link to the type of programs that I will be setting up here in the State Of NH. I have worked with these guys from the Pacific Northwest before. Good bunch of guys.

http://pacificblasting.com/stabilization.html
 

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