Who the F is Daniel???

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You're pretty reactionary, Daniel. I would be thrilled to see you stop using the skid steer for these complex rigging scenarios you are putting out. The problem is that you have no idea how much force you are putting into the system. With a quick field calc you can with ropes and pulleys reeve a system of anywhere from 2:1 on up to 60:1 and exceed tensile of your rigging ropes using only man power. You need to figure your weakest link and that's the maximum input you should put into the system.

For example, at 5:1 pulling, 2 guys weighing around 200 lbs will put 2000 lbs into a system which then approaches the 20% WLL on 1/2 inch Stable Braid.

That would be more than enough to sever the HUGE backstrap you are leaving in the video.

Secondly, the backstrap you show in your videos seems to be overkill. It should break fairly easily.

That's about it. Come to one of the Vermeer seminars next time we have one in your area. Any one of the demonstrators from ACT&E, NATS, or ArborMaster can show you exactly what each part of the system is rated for and how quickly you can exceed tensile ability.

Check with the NATS or Arborcanada websites for when the next Hazard and Danger Tree Cutting and Falling course will be scheduled in your area.

Keep safe.
 
Does that mean you're not going to give up any more details on the specifics of the cut that is taught by NATS etc?.. I AM curious about the teachings, and I seriously doubt I would learn much from any training on falling (that could be applied to suburban arboriculture) at this point.

I checked out your website and have a lot of repect for what you are doing.. GREAT JOB.. And we'll have to agree to disagree on the pulling with a skid steer.. I AM much more concerned with SWL when it comes to rigging lines.. I will exceed SWL on pull lines without hesitation. I don't mind replacing ropes, when it saves dangerous climbing and rigging.

I pulled by hand with MA systems for years, but would never go back.. The majority of my falls, I walk away from the stump and call for the pull... I think most others need the pull while they are cutting to allow them to judge how far to push the back cut.. SO with most of my cuts, the system is set and will take whatever it is to trip it, no matter what type of pulling system is used.
 
Good on you for trying Zeb. Some people are just determined to learn the hard way.

I've taken a lot of arborcanada courses including the hazard & danger tree felling one. They were all well presented and I took a lot away from them. Not least of all is being able to better identify dangerous situations , gear limitations, and unneccesary risks. All of these things are evident in ALL of Daniel's videos.

So again thanks for trying. God knows we all have but it's an uphill battle. Rest assured that common sense, experience, and general lack of head-up-asz will prevail here on the Buzz.

Sincerely yours,
happily and willingly "in a box",
 
I personally never base the amount of holding wood on when the tree starts to fall, your far too likely to cut off the holding wood. The majority of felling cuts I make the tree isn't leaning heavy in the direction I want, so I make the notch and backcut, walk away to a safe distance or go help pull.

And for those that are leaning the the direction of fall, well I've been using a technique much like yours which I learnt at Humber College long before I'd heard of TreeBuzz or Youtube.

For saying you invented this cut which is basically a snap cut that arborists have been using for decades, makes me think much less of you Daniel.
 
Maybe invented isn't the right word. I certainly made it up.. though its pretty much common sense. This cut has been presented in videos since 2009 that has been viewd by thousands, many of whom claim to be expert fallers and west coast forrestry trainers etc.. and this is the first I've heard of anyone else claim to use or even be aware of this cut..

Even Zeb wrote:
Secondly, the backstrap you show in your videos seems to be overkill. It should break fairly easily.


That is not at all true about the cut I use, so maybe he's not teaching the same cut.. One of the benefits of the step cut is that it can be set up to make sure it won't trip until it is pulled with some serious equipment.

Also his other statement:
For example, at 5:1 pulling, 2 guys weighing around 200 lbs will put 2000 lbs into a system which then approaches the 20% WLL on 1/2 inch Stable Braid.


is not true about many of the step cuts I use.. it takes more than 2 men with 5:1 MA to trip the step cut, when falling bigger trees.

And if Robinia has taken the course that Zeb says teaches this cut, then why does he think my cut is so "dangerous".. Simply does not sound like the same cut..
 
A 200# guy on a 5:1 can theoretically create 1000# of pulling force so 2 guys = 2000#.

Does it matter who first made a particular kind of cut?

It's not the cut at issue, it's the hydraulics and the fact that you can't accurately estimate the amount of force you're putting on the rigging.

Skid steers are great when you need'em but usually they just tear up lawns.

How often is falling a tree so dangerous that you have to evacuate before it commits?


For my money I use a tightline on any tree that needs persuasion to break onto the face. A 5:1 has always been sufficient to get even 60" trees onto the hinge.

I see nothing dangerous about the step cut itself... it seems kinda pointless from my perspective... but that's just me.
 
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dont get angry at me daniel for asking but, how did you get 2000lbs from 2 guys weighing 200lbs?

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Joshua,
Perhaps my post was unclear. If you re-read it carefully you'll see that I didn't say that... that was a quote from Zeb's earlier post. I would assume he knows what he's talking about, as he works with Arb Canada, and they must have gotten out the dyno to measue such things..

That said, think the only way to get that kind of pull is by using a keeping knot, so that the men can heave with some momentum and not loose the pull between yanks. I would be surprised if one man could generate 200 lbs of steady pressure by leaning on a rope on flat ground. And also wonder how much friction is involved in a 5:1 MA system. I would guess somewhere between 3-7%. I'll let you know when I get a dyno..
 
BTW, I rarely need to break out anything more than 3:1 to pull over back leaning trees.

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it takes more than 2 men with 5:1 MA to trip the step cut, when falling bigger trees.

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That's what I mean by overkill. your hinge and a wedge should be sufficient to "hold" the tree while you walk away from the back leaner.
 
Chip,
Check this out.. If one is using a pre-formed hinge (bore cut and back release), then the amount of pull that it takes to break the backstrap release cut and trip the hinge is going to be the exact same no matter what source is creating pull. In that situation it is simply just faster and easier to pull with equipment if the equipment is readily available.

Another major advantage of pulling with my skidsteer (which does not tear up the grass) is that I can precisely set the desired direction of pull, without regard to needing a well placed ground anchor. This is particlarly important when pulling backleaners.

Another advantage is that it allows me to use a much stronger hinge which is crucial in certain situations. I consider this a major safety factor in many falls. For example, many people consider silver maple to be an extremely poor hinging species. I have found that silver maple can be a great holding hinge, when the hinge is extra wide, (up to 6"). You are simply not going to break a hinge like that with MA and human power, without going to a lot of hassle in setting up and putting away a very involved MA system. SO i can often fall a tree by using an extra strong hinge, where otherwise, I'd have to rig it out furtrher before falling. Replacing climbing/rigging time with falling is a safety factor.

Pulling by hand not only takes longer, it is fatiguing, which is another safety factor that many fail to consider.

We have discussed all this in another thread here on TB. http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=242786&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

I was a lonely voice calling for the use of equioment for pulling and had to once again listen to a bunch of derogatory comments from the clueless masses, though I did get one PM apology from a man that started pulling with his mini after reading my posts.

There are many more advanteages to pulling with equipment.. too much to list. It gives me so many more options when falling. I would NEVER go back. And I consider ANYONE that recommends against pulling with equipment, not even in my league. They simply lack the experience to know better.


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A 200# guy on a 5:1 can theoretically create 1000# of pulling force so 2 guys = 2000#.

Does it matter who first made a particular kind of cut?

It's not the cut at issue, it's the hydraulics and the fact that you can't accurately estimate the amount of force you're putting on the rigging.

Skid steers are great when you need'em but usually they just tear up lawns.

How often is falling a tree so dangerous that you have to evacuate before it commits?


For my money I use a tightline on any tree that needs persuasion to break onto the face. A 5:1 has always been sufficient to get even 60" trees onto the hinge.

I see nothing dangerous about the step cut itself... it seems kinda pointless from my perspective... but that's just me.

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And I consider ANYONE that recommends against pulling with equipment, not even in my league. They simply lack the experience to know better.

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That would probably work as a good quote for your gravestone.

SZ
 
Zeb,
Check out these backleaners.. These two jobs were both priced lower than competitve bids. This one $1,500, completed in 9 man hours

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_z9Lkw8sbI

And this one was $2,500, completed in somewhere around 22 man-hours..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI57_nTRkd0

I would not have even considered doing either job this way if I had to pull by hand..


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BTW, I rarely need to break out anything more than 3:1 to pull over back leaning trees.

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it takes more than 2 men with 5:1 MA to trip the step cut, when falling bigger trees.

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That's what I mean by overkill. your hinge and a wedge should be sufficient to "hold" the tree while you walk away from the back leaner.

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How often is falling a tree so dangerous that you have to evacuate before it commits?
I see nothing dangerous about the step cut itself... it seems kinda pointless from my perspective... but that's just me.

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Chip,
There are many advantages to the step cut other than allowing the faller to safely walk away from the cut. I only realized that as an advantage after seeing the tremendous holding ability the step cut has. I started using it for different reasons.

And I agree that the times are few and far between that it is REALLY needed to allow the faller to walk away from a cut in east coast suburban arboriculture. However just like any other trick in the bag, its nice to have it when you need it, and the only way to get that is to practice in non-critical situations.

This 2 minute vid is of a job a few weeks back. Falling this tree on a steep uphill grade to allow us to grab it from the driveway, rather than have to drag it up the hill. The butt was sure to bounce around upon impact and the hill was too steep to allow a comfortable escape path. It was the perfect cut to use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJb3Ofkohp0
 
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And if Robinia has taken the course that Zeb says teaches this cut, then why does he think my cut is so "dangerous".. Simply does not sound like the same cut..

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They DO NOT teach climbing under it once it's set. That's just plain asinine.
 
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And if Robinia has taken the course that Zeb says teaches this cut, then why does he think my cut is so "dangerous".. Simply does not sound like the same cut..

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They DO NOT teach climbing under it once it's set. That's just plain asinine.

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Yoy Keep getting the story wrong Rob.
First of all, the only time I have ever shown a video of climbing underneath this cut, is when the top was tied off, butt heavy, in an adjacent tree.

Secondly you said:
"... dangerous situations , gear limitations, and unneccesary risks. All of these things are evident in ALL of Daniel's videos. " I've shown the step cut used in falling tres in MANY videos... SO get your story straight.

Here's the video that best illustrates the "step cut"..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc4IYyTzYQQ

is this the cut you learned from arb canada?
 
That cut in the video would require a skid steer to sever the mismatch. No wonder you don't want to use MA. It looks like you are justifying your skid steer. That felling cut would have operated the same if not better if you had used a traditional bore cut with a backstrap the same thickness as your hinge and no more than 3:1 to pull it over.

What you are demonstrating over and over as a step cut appears to be setting you up for a catastrophic failure when the forces needed to break a large amount of wood either cause a rope failure or hinge failure.
 
Daniel with all my respect, the way you handle this situations (on the last 2 vids) will get you hurt one day....

Climb up there, get rid off the mass and then use your step cut even if I can not see any point in using that method. Maybe you should try some other techniques and get over this one ;-)

Pulling like you do with the skidsteer is nice with normal trees, but with this setup it will once end up in big failure and people getting hurt.

Your toolbox definitly needs an update or improvement as they say and only our words can make you think about what you are doing, you'd be stupid not to take notice off this comment and think things over again.

Finaly, it's not a personal attack :-)

climb safe
wouter
 
Brings us right back to where we came from. I know what this and many other techniques I use are capable of. I understand their limitations and benefits thoroughly and use them safely and succesfully over and over again with virtually no unexpected happenings.. People that look at these cuts etc.. and say they are unsafe simply lack the experience and expertise to understand why that is not true. I keep getting it done. Once agian the only way for me to make that point is to say its over ALL your heads, and that of course makes me sound arrogant and pisses everyone off. I can live with that!
 
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