"We've got a tree that was scaring people."

guymayor

Branched out member
Location
East US, Earth
\"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

Hokie Headache
Stadium Woods tree's end leaves splintered feelings
Virginia Tech officials said an old oak felled on Thursday was a danger to passers-by.
By Tonia Moxley
381-1675

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/312639

Photos by Christina O'Connor | Special to The Roanoke Times
A stump and logs are all that remain of a white oak that was cut Thursday in Stadium Woods on the Virginia Tech campus.

Advocates for Stadium Woods light a wish lantern Thursday evening in honor of a tree that was cut down in Virginia Tech’s old-growth forest. The gathering drew about 15 people.
BLACKSBURG — About 15 people gathered on the edge of Virginia Tech's controversial Stadium Woods to commemorate the cutting of one of the forest fragment's several dozen large oaks, some of which are estimated to be more than 300 years old.
"We are here to mourn the loss of tree No. 131," Environmental Coalition President Erica Largen told the assembly that gathered at 9 p.m. near the roped-off site where earlier in the day a crew had cut down the old oak. Students and community members lit candles around the site and stood in a circle for the ceremony.
Despite the estimates of the tree's age, "the Virginia Tech administration decided to go forth with chain saws," Largen said.
But Largen encouraged the group to see the lost oak as a "reason to fight back, to never give up and to protect the rest of these trees."
Tech officials said the 85-foot-tall, 4-foot-diameter oak was cut Thursday because two certified arborists hired to evaluate it found that it was at risk of falling, and was a danger to people and property. The tree stood beside the Corps of Cadets rappelling tower and near a popular walking and biking trail.
"Safety trumps everything," university spokesman Mark Owczarski said. "It posed a threat to our community. When it comes to matters of safety, we will act."
At the urging of the university's Arboretum Committee — an advisory group that includes forestry experts — the university commissioned two professional evaluations of the tree. Certified arborists from Total Tree Health Care in Radford and Bartlett Tree Experts out of Roanoke have inspected the tree and found that a hollow section near the base of the trunk rendered it unstable. Both firms recommended the tree be removed.
But Tech forestry professor and Stadium Woods advocate John Seiler questioned the arborists' conclusions by email Thursday. There is no scientific proof that "trees with bad rankings actually fall more often than trees with good rankings," Seiler wrote.
Stadium Woods tree assessments
Stadium Woods tree asessment report
Stadium Woods tree asessment report 2
Furthermore, Seiler pointed out, the tree was left standing in good condition after the devastating winds of the June 29 derecho storm that knocked down trees and power lines across Southwest Virginia.
It's likely, Seiler wrote, that the tree could have been hollow in sections "for 100 years or more" and posed no significant threat.
Tech's Arboretum Committee was informed earlier this week that the tree was slated for removal. But about a half-dozen members of the 15-member advisory group asked "that the tree be cordoned off to keep pedestrians away â? until a decision about the fate of the woods was made because that decision might influence the judgment of risk and liability associated with the tree," committee chairman and forestry professor Eric Wiseman wrote in an email.
Facilities officials didn't respond to the request, Wiseman wrote, and the tree was cut. It was one of dozens of white oaks that have been dated from 100 to more than 300 years old. The discovery of those trees prompted a grass-roots effort to stop the university's athletic department from building an indoor football practice facility on about 3 acres of the 14-acre woodland.
The Faculty Senate, Graduate Student Assembly and Student Government Association have all passed resolutions advocating that the woods be kept intact. Tech urban forestry professor Susan Day has said the forest fragment is unique on the East Coast, and a consultant's report valued the woods' ecological impact at about $5 million.
After public and campus outcry on behalf of the woods, Tech President Charles Steger ordered a study of the issue. In June, an ad hoc committee of stakeholders recommended that the practice facility be built outside of the woods.
The cutting of the tree Thursday was not related to the practice facility debate, university spokesman Larry Hincker said. "This is totally independent of that decision," which is pending.
Vice President for Administrative Services Sherwood Wilson is expected to make a formal recommendation on the practice facility to Steger in the next few weeks. There is no timeline for the president to make a final decision, Hincker said. How the tree was cut - between semesters without any notice to the public when faculty and students are often out of town - irked many who support keeping the woods intact.
According to Seiler, "officials indicated the cutting would be delayed and the whole thing was done in a deceitful manner."
Tammy Belinsky of Virginia Forest Watch, who attended the gathering Thursday night, said "the fundamental problem here is that the university has not learned any lessons about community and trust."
Officials have been considering cutting the tree since February, and knew thousands of people had expressed interest in the fate of the woods. If officials had informed the public, they could have heard alternatives to cutting the tree, Belinsky said.
"I'm a little embarrassed to be a Hokie today," Largen said. While she said she never wants to see someone's safety put at risk, cutting the oak tree "in secret â? is not OK."
University officials first became concerned about the oak a year ago, when a grounds crew noticed a large hole at its base, Hincker said.
No one was eager to cut it down, he said. "But we've got a tree that was scaring people."

Tree Structure EvaluationTree Risk Rating and Recommendations

RecommendationsArborist Risk RatingStructure
CrownClean to reduce the risk of branch failuresModerateRoot FlareRemove tree to eliminate the potential for failuresHigh
LimbsLow1Clean to reduce the risk of branch failures

Stems CriticalRemove tree to eliminate the potential for failures
Interpretations Critical Risk: Failure imminent; personal injury and/or property damage inevitable.High Risk: Failure likely especially during storms; personal injury and/or property damage likely.Moderate Risk: Failure possible especially during severe storms; personal injury and/or property damage possible.Low Risk: Failure unlikely; personal injury and/or property damage unlikely.

The defect(s) that have been found pose an unacceptable risk of failure of the tree. The removal of the tree is thereforerecommended. Any treatments, other than removal, that may be recommended, can only reduce the risk of tree failure to a lesserdegree. Such remedial treatments will not reduce the risk failure to an acceptable level. These options should be discussedthoroughly with the arborist representative prior to making a decision.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

[ QUOTE ]
Hokie Headache
Stadium Woods tree's end leaves splintered feelings

Virginia Tech officials said an old oak felled on Thursday was a danger to passers-by.
By Tonia Moxley
381-1675

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/312639

[/ QUOTE ]
... Tech officials said the 85-foot-tall, 4-foot-diameter oak was cut Thursday because two certified arborists hired to evaluate it found that it was at risk of falling, and was a danger to people and property. The tree stood beside the Corps of Cadets rappelling tower and near a popular walking and biking trail.
"Safety trumps everything," university spokesman Mark Owczarski said. "It posed a threat to our community. When it comes to matters of safety, we will act."

At the urging of the university's Arboretum Committee — an advisory group that includes forestry experts — the university commissioned two professional evaluations of the tree. Certified arborists from Total Tree Health Care in Radford and Bartlett Tree Experts out of Roanoke have inspected the tree and found that a hollow section near the base of the trunk rendered it unstable.

Both firms recommended the tree be removed.

[/ QUOTE ]
------------------------------
Why don't we just cut to the quick?

The ISA should produce laminated flyers in packets of a dozen that say all trees are inevitably unstable and potential threats to safety. There will be a place for certified arborists to sign at their discretion, upon payment of course.

Likely, there will be correspondent efficiency expectations in other trades and businesses, like elevator doors cutting people in half, or medications tested in a study of 200 people for efficacy and safety that proves horribly wrong when released to the general public.

Call it a general liability exemption for everything. Simultaneously useful and fungible

--------------

I used to keep umbrellas in a stand next to the door, now I keep it filled with cynicisms as well. The interior decorators haven't quite caught on yet.


tubs
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

That's too bad.
Wouldn't a strong healthy root system opposite the lean go a long way for keeping the tree standing or am I confused?

I find it hard to believe that there was not at least one other management option for this tree.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

Did anyone open the link and look at the 2 risk reports (besides the gazer that is)? kinda similar...

Note also that one version was just a summary--the university is slow disclosing the full report. FOIA might need to be called on.


the university has a top-notch professor who understands trees and risk, but they $pent on outside assessors, hid the results from him and the advocate group for 6 months, then disclose the decision days before the act, so the group had no time to act.

Makes you wonder.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

They obviously just wanted to do away with the tree!

And with regards to the occupancy ratings...aren't those a little high? People are most likely not walking or cycling through that park for more than 12-18 hrs during the summer...and perhaps only 6-8 hrs during the winter if at all, and how often is the cadet corps rappelling tower in use.

I wonder which firm cut the tree out! Maybe the schedule was a little light.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

good points. re target rating, if future policemen and soldiers are fearful of a tree with a burl in the bottom, how safe will our kids be when real dangers threaten??
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

I would be curious if a post mortoum was done on the tree. Customers often comment on how "solid" a tree is that they wanted removed because a hole was seen at the site of an old branch etc. Was the section found with the least shell wall and measurements taken to compare with the reports? Have the professors gather parts of this tree to use as a learning tool? Imagine students comparing parts of the trees to the reports!!!!

Further how much did the consultants charge? Can a thorough examination and report be done for $200, what about $500? Are we expecting consultants to gather enough data to support or deny a removal finding but do not allow them the time to do it? DO we pay only enough to find the fault that can be used to support removal?

It is not surprising that the university would not listen to their own professor(s). Outside consultants help to insulate from liability and criticism, and often consultants can be steered in the desired direction.

Every time I have ever been at a workshop, etc., about risk assessment the question of liability arises and the consensus is always to err on the side of caution which means recommending removal.

What this shows me is that if we want urban woodlands we must seperate them from people. With human usage comes inevitable conflicts which are decided in favour of people. Woodlands become patchy and lose their ability to be self-supporting, they move towards parklands and even parks, where there is further pressure to remove trees.

Condemning and cutting trees is really easy, preservation, conservation and conflict management are the hard things. How does a conservation arborist counter ingrained arborophobia when the use of the phrase tree risk assessment immediately ups the concern level? How can trees be saved if all the negatives are tallied in a TRA but the benefits are not? Are TRA assessment by their very design not pointing towards removals?
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

"Every time I have ever been at a workshop, etc., about risk assessment the question of liability arises and the consensus is always to err on the side of caution which means recommending removal."

You've been at the wrong ones!

"Are TRA assessment by their very design not pointing towards removals?"

Many assessment forms and models institute witch hunts for defects, and ignore features. The BMP counters that trend, somewhat.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

[ QUOTE ]
"Every time I have ever been at a workshop, etc., about risk assessment the question of liability arises and the consensus is always to err on the side of caution which means recommending removal."

You've been at the wrong ones!



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Neville Fay, Erk Brudi, Julian Dunster, Scott Cullen, Dr. Funk amongst others are the wrong ones, I agree.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

[ QUOTE ]
Statics Integrated Methods wind loads analysis along with sonic tomography.

It would seem if they were serious about assessing risk this is the way to go for a more definitive answer



[/ QUOTE ]

IS it reasonable to use a method that one or two people in NOrth AMerica have access to? IS it the definitive answer?

If the university was on a witch hunt they would have found the witch, if they wanted a reasobale TRA they would be able to get that.

Ultimately TRA is information and oponion and it must still be interpreted and the fate of the tree has much to do with preceptions and goals of owners (in this case administrators) not the beliefs of arborists, foresters, greenies, etc.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Every time I have ever been at a workshop, etc., about risk assessment the question of liability arises and the consensus is always to err on the side of caution which means recommending removal."

You've been at the wrong ones!



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Neville Fay, Erk Brudi, Julian Dunster, Scott Cullen, Dr. Funk amongst others are the wrong ones, I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Fay or Brudi ever ever ever said that; they both typically specify a range of mitigation options. Scott and Roger are great guys but are they published or expert on TRA? Scott in particular focuses on appraisal. Dunster may have said that in a weak moment.

bottom line; it's BS to be forced into a decision. If you need to err, you have not gotten enough information.
All in the Assignment
Defining the Assignment is a collaboration. The professional’s first job is to put the client’s problem and need into words, and the next is to describe a course of action to solve the problem and meet the need. That course of action is the Assignment. It’s up to the professional to make sure the client understands what the job is is. Very often, tree owners want specific answers to general questions, and the challenge is to gently let them know what is possible, and how you can satisfy the desires that drove them to call you without promising them the moon. ...

If the clients want to know whether their tree is safe enough to stay, or what management is needed for their entire landscape, and think this can be concluded in an hour’s time, they are often asking for the impossible. Consultants may not always be right, but they are responsible for determining that the job is doable, and how it gets done. ....
***Recommendations are optional, according to the A Consultant’s Guide to Writing Effective Reports. When clients need information on clear tasks like pest control or pruning or root invigoration, that need is met by listing practical management options, often in a table. Then the clients can choose which treatments to budget for. Sometimes clients want similarly specific directions on managing more complex issues, like managing the risk and benefits associated with large old trees, but are not ready to pay for the work needed to give them the details they ask for.
After clarifying what is needed, clients often understand that information is the goal, and they are content with a list of management options. Decisions on which actions to take remain with the tree owner, unless the consultant decides that there are adequate resources to take on that responsibility, and is prepared to accept it. Clients do not get what they paid for when resources are lacking to competently form recommendations. Don’t promise what you can’t deliver!
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Statics Integrated Methods wind loads analysis along with sonic tomography.

It would seem if they were serious about assessing risk this is the way to go for a more definitive answer



[/ QUOTE ]

IS it reasonable to use a method that one or two people in NOrth AMerica have access to? IS it the definitive answer?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I said a MORE definitive answer. Certainly more than the opinion presented in the reports here. Computer modelling based on the data collected during the testing process gives, IMO, a more accurate inference of the tree's risk. Is it reasonable to use this method? Of course, but as you suggest that is up to the client and what their end goals are. Unfortunately, in the US too much is governed by liability concerns. Thus the "err on the side of caution" mentality.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

Expert witness: "I err on the side of caution"

Attorney: "So it is true; you make mistakes on purpose!"
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

Do you value the carrots on your plate higher than the lives of your loved ones in life Guy?

jomoco
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Statics Integrated Methods wind loads analysis along with sonic tomography.

It would seem if they were serious about assessing risk this is the way to go for a more definitive answer



[/ QUOTE ]

IS it reasonable to use a method that one or two people in NOrth AMerica have access to? IS it the definitive answer?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I said a MORE definitive answer. Certainly more than the opinion presented in the reports here. Computer modelling based on the data collected during the testing process gives, IMO, a more accurate inference of the tree's risk. Is it reasonable to use this method? Of course, but as you suggest that is up to the client and what their end goals are. Unfortunately, in the US too much is governed by liability concerns. Thus the "err on the side of caution" mentality.

[/ QUOTE ]


I do not believe that a TRA can be more definitve, first definitive is an absolute, second I believe that you means more precise or accurate.

Unfortunately attaching some instruments to a tree and getting some data is not gong to give an answer. After the data are analyzed, interpretation is required. While SIA and SIM require a 100% rating for safety to be achieved (based on the assumptions made in the data analysis (model)) a minimum of 150% is generally the figure used by the practioners.

SIM, SIA and tomography still require that the consultant choose the position on the tree with the minimum shell wall thickness or least holding material. This requires interpretation, knowledge, expertise etc. Inputs into the computer models are also to some extent set by the consultant. Based on these two facts alone there is nothing definitve about the tests.

We must always fall back to VTA as a starting point in TRA and then decide if more information is needed to get to an end result. I think in most cases there are no absolutes (except revoval) and all other findings are wishy-washy. A low-risk tree studied for root-plate stability may still shed a limb, house a hornet nest, or be an attractive nuisance. A medium risk tree, is as likely to fail as a high risk tree if the TRA has used frequeny of usage ratings.

Ultimately the TRA must be done by an expert who does an unbiased job with the funds available. Then the owners get to decide and removal is generally the easiest decision.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

[ QUOTE ]
Do you value the carrots on your plate higher than the lives of your loved ones in life Guy?

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean and what does it add to the conversation?

If you are suggesting that you err on the side of caution to protect human life then when do you stop removing trees? Denuding the landscape has not worked to well for a lot of cultures.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

Good post. " Denuding the landscape has not worked to well for a lot of cultures. "

Southern Europe, prime example.

"the consultant choose the position on the tree with the minimum shell wall thickness or least holding material. This requires interpretation, knowledge, expertise etc. Inputs into the computer models are also to some extent set by the consultant. Based on these two facts alone there is nothing definitve about the tests."

User input is often better than automatic--one evaluation program rated the bark at 2.5" thick when it was only .5". kinda made a difference. Yes the uncertainties should be disclaimed.

"Ultimately the TRA must be done by an expert who does an unbiased job with the funds available. Then the owners get to decide and removal is generally the easiest decision."

That's because the expert is too often unreasonably biased toward avoiding a lawsuit, and does not understand pruning and other options very well, being a nonpractitioner, so the owner gets a removal bias based on CYA and lack of information.

Broken record again, but looking to the standards makes a lot possible.
 
Re: \"We\'ve got a tree that was scaring people.\"

[ QUOTE ]

That's because the expert is too often unreasonably biased toward avoiding a lawsuit, and does not understand pruning and other options very well, being a nonpractitioner, so the owner gets a removal bias based on CYA and lack of information.

Broken record again, but looking to the standards makes a lot possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not understand. Are you suggesting that TRassessors do not understand pruning? Are you saying TRA are not practicing arborists? Really? That is quite a claim!!!!! Perhaps you are suggesting that most people with tree risk assessor status are operating at a basic level rather than at a high level of education, knowledge, experience and competence etc.. This I would agree with. It seems that if you can get ISA CA you can quickly become a tree risk assessor for a few exxtra dollars you have a new liscence to charge for things you really are not expert at.
 

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom