Vines and Tree Health

opposablethumb

opposablethumb

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I'd like to pick your brains about vines in trees and how they affect tree health. Also, if there are any reliable texts out there on the subject, feel free to pass along.

It seems like there is a lot of myth and anecdotal based perceptions out there, and I'm a bit confused myself.

Some comments that I've heard that contribute to the general confusion:

from a "veteran" tree guy:
"We just removed a big white oak. Poison Ivy got up into it and killed it."

from someone in my neighborhood:
"Our neighbor is worried that that wild grape is going to grow up and pull the tree over."

from someone I don't remember:
"English Ivy is fine in trees because it will never grow over and shade the canopy like kudzu."

from Robert Wells great article in the TCI magazine:
"English ivy will climb a tree faster than the tree can grow. Cavities are hidden that can bring down the tree."

Obviously, kudzu is a killer. But where I'm confused is the less aggressive vines like poison ivy and company that, on the east coast at least, are native and are a part of the balance in the forest's natural ecosystem. With vines like this, virginia creeper, and even the non-native English ivy, do these vines pose a threat to the tree's health?

thanks for any advice/help...
 
At a recent workshop on Tree Risk Assessment, Dr. Smiley and Dr. Fraedrich of Bartlett Tree Research both agreed that you can't do an accurate and thorough assessment of a tree covered in vines. If the tree requires assessment and or monitoring, the vines gotta go.
 
Robert, I almost always recommend removal of English ivy that's growing on important trees. It's invasive, it shades tree foliage, it uses moisture that would otherwise be available to the tree, and it's weight can occasionally break branches. English ivy can and does contribute to tree decline and mortality. But I would say the main reason for removal is because it's invasive.

As far as tree health is concerned, I don't usually worry about poison ivy as long as the vine remains on the trunk. It doesn't seem as aggressive as English ivy, at least on the Coastal Plain of Virginia. Of course customers aren't usually fond of poison ivy, so it gets removed too.

Woody vines can and do girdle trees, so they should be considered for removal on important trees.

In my opinion, there really is no predetermined answer to your questions without knowing more details of a specific situation. Heck, I might even fertilize poison ivy if it was overtaking a mimosa!
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(Albizia julibrissin)

I don't know of any textbooks that have any detailed discussion about vines and tree health. You may want to check with the Georgia or Tennessee Cooperative Extension for reliable advice about the vines in your region.
 
It depends on the vine and the tree and the maintenance budget. Many woody vines do not girdle trees because their growth habit is up, not around the trunk. Mnay creeping vines tend ot stay out of the crown due to light competition.

If a vine can be trained to stems in the lower trunk, inspection is not impeded. english ivy is high maintenance to keep behaved. wisteria, bittersweet, other twining exotics are rarely compatible. PI and jasmine and va creeper twine less tightly so are more compatible.

for a text, try Arboriculture: the care of trees, shrubs and....VINES!

I like vines; must be the Tarzan movies...
 
[ QUOTE ]
for a text, try Arboriculture: the care of trees, shrubs and....VINES!


[/ QUOTE ]
"Vines can engulf shrubs and small trees and sometimes kill them by blocking sunlight." p. 471. I think that's the grand total of what you'll read in the third edition of Harris, Clark and Matheny. One or two pages are devoted to vines, one sentence to vines and tree health. Perhaps there is more in the fourth edition.

Robert, you mentioned wild grape in your original post. Wild grape is a woody vine that I've seen girdling small trees by twisting around the tree trunk.
 
Vines not only kill trees they are very hazardous to people too! I wasn't around when it happened but I had a neighbor get killed when he dropped a big poplar with a grape vine entangled in another big poplar. The second tree uprooted and smashed him. I don't know if he ever saw it comin.

Sorry, a bit off topic but this thread reminded me of that.
 
FWIW,On some chipper I saw a warning that vines should be cut into short sections to reduce the likelihood of snaring a worker as it comes by. I don't recall where, or on what model, nor if it is any greater danger than brush chipping. Just thought I'd put it out there.



I suggest that English Ivy be kept to a minimum because its invasive, uses soil and light resources that could be used by the trees/ desirable understory planting, adds weight to the tree possibly catching more snow/ ice load, makes it harder to inspect at least the trunk, and it looks bad when it eventually gets cut near the base.

Vines tangling from one tree to another can make rigging and felling less predictable, as with the anecdote previously mentioned. I missed a small grape vine on a maple that was attached elsewhere in the clump, which swung the spar off its lay.
 
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The best place for vines is on the infeed of a chipper chute!

[/ QUOTE ]

Arborists manage woody plants--vegetation managers shove them all through chippers. Expanding our range of plant mgt can expand our income!
Dunloop you sound fairly fanatic on this one--jk?

Wild grape can and does grow into canopies with ZERO stem girdling.

Again--Woodiness does not make vines bad for trees--twining does. These are native species after all--calling for their eradication damages diversity and goodness knows may displace a host of pre-Columban insects! And yes Glenn you are right--much more in the 4th ed., like p 387-390.

Below, Codit is schooled on vines by his hot flame Electra, the client, and the old man:

"I looked to see whether Codit was paying attention. He was back in the Dubois yard, pruners in hand, looking a vine growing on a pine tree. “Codit, what are you doing?”

Codit dropped the hand pruners. “Just looking, Dendro.” He protested, his cheeks as red as the holly berries on the lapel of Ms. Dubois’ coat as she and Electra approached. “I know some vines strangle trees, but since my new book says that arboriculture is the integrated management of landscape trees, shrubs-- like those waxmyrtles we worked on--, and vines, I was checking to see if it was a weed”.

“No cut without a reason, you got it” Electra smiled. “Vines can be vile or valuable, according to the observer’s view. That is Campsis radicans, trumpetcreeper, and the next tree has Parthenocissus quinquefolia, Virginia creeper. They are clinging vines, not twiners like Wisteria floribunda and Lonicera japonica, which strangle the trees that support them.”

Ms. DuBois glowed. “I’m so glad you know that, young lady. Mr. Dendro included the vines in his original landscape inventory. He knows that my favorite color is red. The first vine has red flowers and the second has red leaves. I also love the way they form a natural area as they creep along the ground.” Codit stashed the hand pruners back in his holster as he went back to the front yard.
 
Mayooor :), in most of the places that I've worked the worst vining culprits aren't even close to being native, except poison ivy. You're going to have to come up with a VERY compelling reason NOT to remove PI :) M ost of the rest of the vines don't work well with trees in the landscape. Of course, there are exceptions, but few.
 
Tom, you are going to have to come up with a very compelling reason for me to go near Poison Ive to remove it from a tree.
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or make it worth the next weeks worth of misery
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. I just removed a 120' Tulip Poplar covered in English Ive until 75ft. That was one I wish someone had taken care of it early. Ill try and get the time lapse up this week, so you all can laugh. What a mess, huh buzzer?
 
Mayooor :),

just riffin' on wulkie, aka "boob", who used to call you that, and me fung (etc.)

in most of the places that I've worked the worst vining culprits aren't even close to being native, except poison ivy.

you worked in NC where there are many excellent native vines that do not make some folks itch.

"You're going to have to come up with a VERY compelling reason NOT to remove PI :)"

i've had contracts that specifically called for leaving it, in greenways, for ecological benefit. Nice fall color too. ;))

"M ost of the rest of the vines don't work well with trees in the landscape. Of course, there are exceptions, but few."

There are many--any non-twiner is very easy to manage. it depends on the vine and the tree and most importantly the arborist and the client. I'm gonna train a 2" dia creeper up a dead pine trunk, thru a sweetgum, and up into another pine, tomorrow. I'll try to get good pics.
 
I agree that it's not a good idea to be reflexive about these things, by keeping an open mind I've even come to appreciate some flowering plums(!)
Still though, it must be said that vines which don't have a negative impact on tree health are the exception. In the lowland forests of Indonesia and much of tropical Asia, competition from vines is the biggest cause of mature tree mortality. And these vines are all native. In the PNW, even extremely vigorous fast growing trees like doug fir and redwood will usually succumb to english ivy if left for long enough. Shade tolerant species like hemlock get wrecked just the same.

Yesterday and today I'm removing a huge Celtis sinensis (Chinese Hackberry) which has been completely destroyed by Bougainvillia. Over half of the tree has been overtopped, killed and broken off, the dead stems laying in the mat of spikey, woody Bougainvillia vines. This mess is also home to rats. Prolly not what most consumers of arboricultural services want for their yard.

I'll post video of the job soon under the title 'Worst Removal Ever'
 
Over here we try to be cautious when a HO ask about ivy removal. The sudden exposure to the sun of the bark can lead to shoot production, further decay on older declining specimens and or sunburn on the more shady types.

Here in my area where Quercus robur is the dominant tree species and Hedera helix the most common creeper. I almost never encounter a tree in serious trouble with the Ivy.

But man it sure is a B..ch to work in a tree that is inhabited by one. On more than one occasion i swore to never come close to an Ivy again.


When clients persist in the idea of removal of an Ivy, i propose to cut the base and leave the removal up to time or a good pull after a year or two.
 
first and foremost vines do frequently root into the cork cambium of trees, they do girdle limbs and trunks, and they do shade out section of tree foliage as well as rob the host plant of nutrients..

One big player in RI is bittersweet sometimes it is so wrapped you could use it to lower wood.

also please note that albizzia julibrissin is a silk tree not a mimosa as stated previously.
 
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