- Location
- St.Louis Mo/Florida
Two hands and a notch....dosnt take much longer! Great job though!
Video: Dropping the top off a big pine
- Thread starter Mr_Ed
- Start date
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
The video and editing made the video easier to watch. That said...I have to address some procedural issues.
I realize that the rules of the game are different in the UK than the US. I have some familiarity with the differences too.
The issues that I have with the way you worked in the tree are more than nit picking. There are some practices that are VERY unsafe but would be VERY easy to correct.
These points sort of follow the video chronology...
Free climbing...why??? Have I free climbed? Not for over 20 years since I realized that I would break if I fell. Even before that it was a rare time that I wasn't secured...the exception not the rule. Justify to me how you put yourself at more exposure to a risk by free climbing in the video than being secured? With the advent, years ago, of throwlines and now a generally accepted practice of SRT ascent there is NO reason to ascend the way that you did in the video.
Ascending with a chainsaw...not really a safety issue but you sure waste a lot of energy dragging that up every step instead of hoisting it once you're in the tree. With a sling/biner, or better a pulley, your groundie can do all of the work. It didn't look like you did any brushing out on the way into the crown.
In the US face screens don't meet the mark for eye protection. Even if they do in the UK, why not add another layer of protection? Seems like a simple way to assure the use of both eyes. In some of the shots the face screen was flipped up...leaving NO protection.
One handed chainsaw use...this is a topic for weekly thrashing. Even with certification, why are you exposing yourself to the risk of kickback or jumping saw? The ONLY times that I one hand is for a cut that can't be made w/two hands. In every cut that you made one handed you were close enough to make w/two. With a small reposition you would have added a higher safety margin. Like a lot of decisions you should ask yourself...I 'can' do this, but 'should' I???
In many of the one-handed shots you didn't have a second attachment, rope or lanyard. Isn't that required in the HSE standard to make one-handers? If not, it makes good sense.
When you descended from the top of a spar your climbing rope was over a short branch stub instead of the trunk. Even though the stub may have been strong enough it was pretty short...I wouldn't allow a descent from that setup because I would be concerned about the rope jumping off the stub or even from around the trunk since both are pretty short. Using a choking false crotch would give you a much bigger margin of safety.
One scene flashed by and I'm not sure if I saw what really happened. I tried to rewind the scene but couldn't replay it. You were brushing out and it looked like you had the chainsaw attached with the short part of the lanyard to your belt. You seemed to make a cut and then drop the saw back onto the biner. Again, if this is what you did it's another example of something that I would never allow. If I can watch the video again I'll see if this happened or not.
On many of the cuts you didn't use an undercut or face cut. That is a good way to have the saw pulled out of your hand/s when the cut barberchairs inside. You can also have the butt snap back and hit you instead of falling free.
There are so many needless, risky procedures in the video. I would really like to hear a new justification for why you exposed yourself to the risk. Most justifications that I've heard in the past will fall on deaf ears. There are so many hazards in the work that we do it makes perfect sense to reduce or eliminate any of the blatant hazards, especially when they are easy to implement.
You've dodged the Grim Reaper on this one but I am very concerned that he's going to be lurking quite closeby.
I realize that the rules of the game are different in the UK than the US. I have some familiarity with the differences too.
The issues that I have with the way you worked in the tree are more than nit picking. There are some practices that are VERY unsafe but would be VERY easy to correct.
These points sort of follow the video chronology...
Free climbing...why??? Have I free climbed? Not for over 20 years since I realized that I would break if I fell. Even before that it was a rare time that I wasn't secured...the exception not the rule. Justify to me how you put yourself at more exposure to a risk by free climbing in the video than being secured? With the advent, years ago, of throwlines and now a generally accepted practice of SRT ascent there is NO reason to ascend the way that you did in the video.
Ascending with a chainsaw...not really a safety issue but you sure waste a lot of energy dragging that up every step instead of hoisting it once you're in the tree. With a sling/biner, or better a pulley, your groundie can do all of the work. It didn't look like you did any brushing out on the way into the crown.
In the US face screens don't meet the mark for eye protection. Even if they do in the UK, why not add another layer of protection? Seems like a simple way to assure the use of both eyes. In some of the shots the face screen was flipped up...leaving NO protection.
One handed chainsaw use...this is a topic for weekly thrashing. Even with certification, why are you exposing yourself to the risk of kickback or jumping saw? The ONLY times that I one hand is for a cut that can't be made w/two hands. In every cut that you made one handed you were close enough to make w/two. With a small reposition you would have added a higher safety margin. Like a lot of decisions you should ask yourself...I 'can' do this, but 'should' I???
In many of the one-handed shots you didn't have a second attachment, rope or lanyard. Isn't that required in the HSE standard to make one-handers? If not, it makes good sense.
When you descended from the top of a spar your climbing rope was over a short branch stub instead of the trunk. Even though the stub may have been strong enough it was pretty short...I wouldn't allow a descent from that setup because I would be concerned about the rope jumping off the stub or even from around the trunk since both are pretty short. Using a choking false crotch would give you a much bigger margin of safety.
One scene flashed by and I'm not sure if I saw what really happened. I tried to rewind the scene but couldn't replay it. You were brushing out and it looked like you had the chainsaw attached with the short part of the lanyard to your belt. You seemed to make a cut and then drop the saw back onto the biner. Again, if this is what you did it's another example of something that I would never allow. If I can watch the video again I'll see if this happened or not.
On many of the cuts you didn't use an undercut or face cut. That is a good way to have the saw pulled out of your hand/s when the cut barberchairs inside. You can also have the butt snap back and hit you instead of falling free.
There are so many needless, risky procedures in the video. I would really like to hear a new justification for why you exposed yourself to the risk. Most justifications that I've heard in the past will fall on deaf ears. There are so many hazards in the work that we do it makes perfect sense to reduce or eliminate any of the blatant hazards, especially when they are easy to implement.
You've dodged the Grim Reaper on this one but I am very concerned that he's going to be lurking quite closeby.
Thanks for finding the energy to point out the many woeful failings in the video Tom.
If the grim reaper takes them early, unlucky for them. But unfortunately, its unlucky for all of us, because they get spat out the other end as a statistic. In the UK at least, those stats are processed to form new legislation. This then places us under tighter constraints. But the 'Yeh Hahs' don't care, they carry on regardless, end up another statistic, and so the cycle continues.
This is a selfish attitude by selfish individuals that understand little of the ramifications of their ignorant actions for the rest of us. I couldn't give a toss how much risk you take, but I do give a toss when it it makes my life more difficult.
This recklessnes has no place within a professional community.
Your not big (although it does look like you enjoy a few pies) and its certainly not clever.
If you want to play risk, go smoke a cigarette next time you fuel your saw - at least you won't wind up a climbing statistic.
If the grim reaper takes them early, unlucky for them. But unfortunately, its unlucky for all of us, because they get spat out the other end as a statistic. In the UK at least, those stats are processed to form new legislation. This then places us under tighter constraints. But the 'Yeh Hahs' don't care, they carry on regardless, end up another statistic, and so the cycle continues.
This is a selfish attitude by selfish individuals that understand little of the ramifications of their ignorant actions for the rest of us. I couldn't give a toss how much risk you take, but I do give a toss when it it makes my life more difficult.
This recklessnes has no place within a professional community.
Your not big (although it does look like you enjoy a few pies) and its certainly not clever.
If you want to play risk, go smoke a cigarette next time you fuel your saw - at least you won't wind up a climbing statistic.
I agree with Tom on this one...the video is good quality and nice to watch, but the safety practices are pretty blatantly botched up.
Several folks are cavalier about one-handing and freeclimbing...sure, they may save time but the extra risk can't be worth it. Where is the sense in waiting to start consistent safety practices until after you get hurt? We have enough people telling us here how they got hurt freeclimbing or one-handing or not wearing eye protection...why not learn from them?
The greatest cause of human tragedy is impatience.
It takes discipline to consistently do what we know is right. I remember seeing all the climbers at the ITCC last August (the first TCC I had ever been to) and being extremely impressed with the level of fitness and attention to detail that I saw there...from the competitors AND many of the spectators. It was one of the largest groups of fit looking folks (therefore, in many ways disciplined) I have been around.
I would like to think that my brother and sister climbers out there are disciplined enough to take the time to do things the safest way. I don't want any of us to be "statistics".
Several folks are cavalier about one-handing and freeclimbing...sure, they may save time but the extra risk can't be worth it. Where is the sense in waiting to start consistent safety practices until after you get hurt? We have enough people telling us here how they got hurt freeclimbing or one-handing or not wearing eye protection...why not learn from them?
The greatest cause of human tragedy is impatience.
It takes discipline to consistently do what we know is right. I remember seeing all the climbers at the ITCC last August (the first TCC I had ever been to) and being extremely impressed with the level of fitness and attention to detail that I saw there...from the competitors AND many of the spectators. It was one of the largest groups of fit looking folks (therefore, in many ways disciplined) I have been around.
I would like to think that my brother and sister climbers out there are disciplined enough to take the time to do things the safest way. I don't want any of us to be "statistics".
Tom, all valid points, and no excuses here or justifications here. just put it down to youthfull exubrance/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif. I broke my safety specs by sitting on them in the jeep that morning/forum/images/graemlins/bigeyes.gif. I have a non locking carabiner to catch my saw.
Climbing with a saw? always done it. always will. its what you get used to.
I used hinge and step cuts where needed. on small limbs, snatch and 'barber chairs' are non existent.
As to double tie ins whilst cutting, Yes when dropping the tops, but no, not when doing smaller cuts. I feel its redundant, but thats just my opinion.
You could use this as a good training vid on how not to do it.
Paolo, take a leaf from Tom and learn to express yourself in a less patronising fashion. After all, some of us are more experienced that yourself... and who knows, you might make some friends /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Climbing with a saw? always done it. always will. its what you get used to.
I used hinge and step cuts where needed. on small limbs, snatch and 'barber chairs' are non existent.
As to double tie ins whilst cutting, Yes when dropping the tops, but no, not when doing smaller cuts. I feel its redundant, but thats just my opinion.
You could use this as a good training vid on how not to do it.
Paolo, take a leaf from Tom and learn to express yourself in a less patronising fashion. After all, some of us are more experienced that yourself... and who knows, you might make some friends /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
i'm not with the free climbing. But i think that with the left hand/arm outstrethced to extreme 9o'clock and the right hand outstretched to extreme 3o'clock to give balance and reach is fairly safe; and fairly hard to cut left hand that is 4' away from saw. The amount of extra balance gained givng safe footing and less fatigue; along with possibly less travel to thinner supports.
With an arm of fair strength; perpendicular from body and ropes; giving good clearance to potential kickback arc of a small, center balanced and supported saw; especially with inertia brake. i know i haven't had trouble controlling mine like that.
i guess in a sanitized, training session; not what you allow or reach for. But in exercised, professional use; perhaps a calculable tradeoff; of what is really, really maximum; without any kind of blinders on.
TITS- all ways, and always.
Very nice, professional film production; on any scale. The nameless, almost faceless, unthanked, no-dialouge stranger fighting the odds, with the background muzak; almost reticient of a genre of spaghetti western wit'squint Eastwood. Even so, when posting such things i guess we must remember; we are playing to a tough crowd; even if a world away; giving it all for free; can be a thankless undertaking.
To climb with or without saw; a personal preferance; on how much effort it is to lower a line, wait for saw,a nd if it will get hung up while being dragged up etc. i like better support anchor for my line on descending; and more friction, to break the necessary controlling friction in 2 parts of support and hitch; and not concentrate the heat in one spot; nor in hand.
i think that in some calculation to branch size, and leveraged force to chain speed/ sharpness ratio; clean cuts and seperations can be achieved. Next is cutting across with slight slant, so there is more leveraged distance of support on 'hinge' prior to seperation, by virtue of the 'hinge'/connecting fiber pattern being inline/vertical to the vertical force of gravity. Downward cuts, giving horizontal connecting fiber pattern near finish giving minimal leverage of distance from top to bottom(direction of gravity force) of fiber pattern. While cuts across; leaving tall, not wide connecting fiber pattern jsut prior to disconnecting, and in that tall vertical column much more leveraged support, that immediately turns to Zer0 on re-lease, for clean cuat and straighter drop. Whereas the downward cut with less leverage fading to Zer0, with not such a sudden change from lots of leverage to Zer0.
IMLHO 'woeful failings'(Phoenix) etc. seem a lil'strong here; smiting of contamination of compettyiveness.
With an arm of fair strength; perpendicular from body and ropes; giving good clearance to potential kickback arc of a small, center balanced and supported saw; especially with inertia brake. i know i haven't had trouble controlling mine like that.
i guess in a sanitized, training session; not what you allow or reach for. But in exercised, professional use; perhaps a calculable tradeoff; of what is really, really maximum; without any kind of blinders on.
TITS- all ways, and always.
Very nice, professional film production; on any scale. The nameless, almost faceless, unthanked, no-dialouge stranger fighting the odds, with the background muzak; almost reticient of a genre of spaghetti western wit'squint Eastwood. Even so, when posting such things i guess we must remember; we are playing to a tough crowd; even if a world away; giving it all for free; can be a thankless undertaking.
To climb with or without saw; a personal preferance; on how much effort it is to lower a line, wait for saw,a nd if it will get hung up while being dragged up etc. i like better support anchor for my line on descending; and more friction, to break the necessary controlling friction in 2 parts of support and hitch; and not concentrate the heat in one spot; nor in hand.
i think that in some calculation to branch size, and leveraged force to chain speed/ sharpness ratio; clean cuts and seperations can be achieved. Next is cutting across with slight slant, so there is more leveraged distance of support on 'hinge' prior to seperation, by virtue of the 'hinge'/connecting fiber pattern being inline/vertical to the vertical force of gravity. Downward cuts, giving horizontal connecting fiber pattern near finish giving minimal leverage of distance from top to bottom(direction of gravity force) of fiber pattern. While cuts across; leaving tall, not wide connecting fiber pattern jsut prior to disconnecting, and in that tall vertical column much more leveraged support, that immediately turns to Zer0 on re-lease, for clean cuat and straighter drop. Whereas the downward cut with less leverage fading to Zer0, with not such a sudden change from lots of leverage to Zer0.
IMLHO 'woeful failings'(Phoenix) etc. seem a lil'strong here; smiting of contamination of compettyiveness.
- Location
- healdsburg, CA
? Why not wear PPE ?
PPE:
Sometimes a PITA. I think folks dont wear it because it can be limiting. Here are some of the issues for me:
Glasses fog up:
This is one reason I have for being frustrated with wearing them. my solutions have sometimes been very creative. For example have bought anti-fogging wipes which sorta work and sorta dont. One method I have used is to spit on the inside of the lenses and buff with my T-shirt.
Glasses scratched:
That was an easy fix. I buy glasses by the case 12 to a case and throw the scratched ones away.
Glasses uncomfortable:
I spent alot of time finding a good source for safety glasses. I buy them from an industrial safety supply house. They have a TREMENDOUS variety of all kinds of different styles, shapes and colors. These industrial supply houses are all over the place and when I compare the choices to say, the mighty Sherrills, the industrial supply houses beat the arborists supply houses in both variety AND price.
Glasses are uncomfortable with using ear muffs:
I dont use ear muffs anymore because of this reason. I use headphone type hearing protection that have plugs unstead of muffs. They are great because unlike plugs that you have to squeeze into your ear, the headphone plugs can be taken out and put around your neck when you need to talk.
Helmets are hot to wear:
Today their are several types of helmets on the market with holes for ventalation. And they are very comfortable.
Gloves are hot and bulky:
Todays gloves are slim and trim and you dont loose any dexterity whatsoever. In fact the grippy gloves inmprove your grip on the rope and actually make it easier to climb. I also buy them by the case and wash them in the washer or just grab a new pair when needed. They are very inexpensive when bought by the case. Throwaways really.
I still dont wear chainsaw chaps or my SIP pants in the tree. Where I live it gets VERY hot (today 101 F. in the shade). But I DO wear the chaps or SIP pants on the ground.
My point is this: PPE is a cultural/personal choice. We all have the choice to be safer or not with our lives. My choice is to be able to hear folks as clearly as possible when I am older, be able to see folks with both eyes when I am older, and also be able to move and walk around on two legs just as long as I possibly can. I also dont like scars and being disfigured. It would bother me to have folks quickly look away from my face should I look like quasimodo or the phantom of the opera.
I am not the best at math so I need both sets of fingers on my hands and I like to hug my wife or hold hands with her sometimes so I also need my arms and fingers for that.
I have several people working for me and with me so my choice with these other people is to supply them with all the PPE gear they can stomach and make it a requirment to wear the stuff on my job sites. I listen to complaints about the fit and comfort of the PPE and I go out of my way to supply them with the stuff that works well for them. In other words I dont buy the homeowner style clear glasses and throw a mangy scratched pair on the dashboard of the truck for general use.
Fit, comfort, and most importantly, stuff that chicks think looks good is paramount. Meet that criteria and folks will be more ready to wear the stuff.
If I wont wear it, I cant expect them to wear it.
After a few years of wearing gloves, safety glasses, and hearing protection, I now am tottally uncomfortable and feel out of sorts if I DONT have the stuff on, on the job site.
-my two cents-
Frans
PPE:
Sometimes a PITA. I think folks dont wear it because it can be limiting. Here are some of the issues for me:
Glasses fog up:
This is one reason I have for being frustrated with wearing them. my solutions have sometimes been very creative. For example have bought anti-fogging wipes which sorta work and sorta dont. One method I have used is to spit on the inside of the lenses and buff with my T-shirt.
Glasses scratched:
That was an easy fix. I buy glasses by the case 12 to a case and throw the scratched ones away.
Glasses uncomfortable:
I spent alot of time finding a good source for safety glasses. I buy them from an industrial safety supply house. They have a TREMENDOUS variety of all kinds of different styles, shapes and colors. These industrial supply houses are all over the place and when I compare the choices to say, the mighty Sherrills, the industrial supply houses beat the arborists supply houses in both variety AND price.
Glasses are uncomfortable with using ear muffs:
I dont use ear muffs anymore because of this reason. I use headphone type hearing protection that have plugs unstead of muffs. They are great because unlike plugs that you have to squeeze into your ear, the headphone plugs can be taken out and put around your neck when you need to talk.
Helmets are hot to wear:
Today their are several types of helmets on the market with holes for ventalation. And they are very comfortable.
Gloves are hot and bulky:
Todays gloves are slim and trim and you dont loose any dexterity whatsoever. In fact the grippy gloves inmprove your grip on the rope and actually make it easier to climb. I also buy them by the case and wash them in the washer or just grab a new pair when needed. They are very inexpensive when bought by the case. Throwaways really.
I still dont wear chainsaw chaps or my SIP pants in the tree. Where I live it gets VERY hot (today 101 F. in the shade). But I DO wear the chaps or SIP pants on the ground.
My point is this: PPE is a cultural/personal choice. We all have the choice to be safer or not with our lives. My choice is to be able to hear folks as clearly as possible when I am older, be able to see folks with both eyes when I am older, and also be able to move and walk around on two legs just as long as I possibly can. I also dont like scars and being disfigured. It would bother me to have folks quickly look away from my face should I look like quasimodo or the phantom of the opera.
I am not the best at math so I need both sets of fingers on my hands and I like to hug my wife or hold hands with her sometimes so I also need my arms and fingers for that.
I have several people working for me and with me so my choice with these other people is to supply them with all the PPE gear they can stomach and make it a requirment to wear the stuff on my job sites. I listen to complaints about the fit and comfort of the PPE and I go out of my way to supply them with the stuff that works well for them. In other words I dont buy the homeowner style clear glasses and throw a mangy scratched pair on the dashboard of the truck for general use.
Fit, comfort, and most importantly, stuff that chicks think looks good is paramount. Meet that criteria and folks will be more ready to wear the stuff.
If I wont wear it, I cant expect them to wear it.
After a few years of wearing gloves, safety glasses, and hearing protection, I now am tottally uncomfortable and feel out of sorts if I DONT have the stuff on, on the job site.
-my two cents-
Frans
- Location
- Burnaby, BC
Re: ? Why not wear PPE ?
Good post Frans.
Good post Frans.
20 years is time enough. And experience is certainly more than the passage of time! It looks like your experience got stuck in a rut after a couple of years and has repeated itself ever since.
As for making friends, if you're making them, I doubt I want to know them...........................hey...........wait a minute ..........................this looks like a school yard.................
I bow out graciously /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Hey Tom, did you notice that rolly eye gremlin?
As for making friends, if you're making them, I doubt I want to know them...........................hey...........wait a minute ..........................this looks like a school yard.................
I bow out graciously /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Hey Tom, did you notice that rolly eye gremlin?
- Location
- Austin, TX
[ QUOTE ]
..........wait a minute ..........................this looks like a school yard.................
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it does, due to your post. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Judge not lest ye be judged... orr something like that
Glass houses stones......
Pot, kettle....
Armpit, a...er um...
Lets play nice lads /forum/images/graemlins/aaa.gif
..........wait a minute ..........................this looks like a school yard.................
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it does, due to your post. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Judge not lest ye be judged... orr something like that
Glass houses stones......
Pot, kettle....
Armpit, a...er um...
Lets play nice lads /forum/images/graemlins/aaa.gif
- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
It feels like we are walking into a movie after it's past the mid-way point. Laz and Ed obviously know each other and have a history. I haven't watched the movie yet, but will on Sunday when I have time. Until then, I guess that I would suggest that you guys PM each other on the "fightin words". We don't really need to see that stuff. Thoughtful replies that don't make border on personal attacks are what we need here.
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
I hate when people say that.
[/ QUOTE ]
A taut line user would! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I hate when people say that.
[/ QUOTE ]
A taut line user would! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate when people say that.
[/ QUOTE ]
A taut line user would! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Hahhaaahahaaahaahaha
You mean some people still use that SOB!
Those ole schoolers are probably still tying it with the end of their climbing line too, probably girth hitch the biner and put a taut line in the tail. That'll save them 5 bucks on a split tail but slowly shorten their climbing line.
Oh man, taut line, you crack me up. /forum/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I hate when people say that.
[/ QUOTE ]
A taut line user would! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Hahhaaahahaaahaahaha
You mean some people still use that SOB!
Those ole schoolers are probably still tying it with the end of their climbing line too, probably girth hitch the biner and put a taut line in the tail. That'll save them 5 bucks on a split tail but slowly shorten their climbing line.
Oh man, taut line, you crack me up. /forum/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif
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