- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Rupe,
Thanks for the Trip Report! Glad that your flight was smooth~~~
Thanks for the Trip Report! Glad that your flight was smooth~~~
Up a stick without a crotch
- Thread starter Tom Dunlap
- Start date
KentuckySawyer
Participating member
- Location
- Louisville
Thanks for the explanation Rupe. You cleared up a few fuzzy spots in my understanding of this technique. I'm a convert!
Thats what I do Rupe. Except with a VT. I just pop off the pulley from the VT first.
I lost faith in the rope guide use on a spar after it slowly collapsed twice, during aerial rescue with two persons attached. It was the early version; don't know if it has improved in that department?
I lost faith in the rope guide use on a spar after it slowly collapsed twice, during aerial rescue with two persons attached. It was the early version; don't know if it has improved in that department?
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
Are we then saying we can lower limbs on a 'Running Krab'? Even skinny ones that might weigh less but take their bends more sharply/ same circle -degrees achieved in less distance?
i think soft device is better/ less leveraged on arc than stiff device. Also, i think a soft device(line) snugs tighter; and is less likely of upset/slip if climber were to hit something etc. or any type of immediate less loading of the supporting noose.
i sill like a step/dawg/swell under line, maybe even a later branch safety catch. We are dealing with 2 angles of pull leveraged i think. Around spar and then line is not inline with self; whereby would take a preceding half/marl in rigging as lengthwise to load? If any kind of flair etc. of wood contacted krab form downward angle, this is more clear that there are 2 arcs potentially on stiff device/ that resists bending/ therefore leverageable?
If off a health stob krab would have only 1 angle of potential sideways force through 3rd forcepoint applying power across tensioned forcepoints of the end pulls. Could even concieveably float some from wood; and jsut leverage Standing Part, not itself IMLHO. And, could not Backhand Hitch the Standing around krab for 2:1 angle; like if you set as shown and came around tree, not to loosen or slip side of krab but to 2:1 beend side?
i think soft device is better/ less leveraged on arc than stiff device. Also, i think a soft device(line) snugs tighter; and is less likely of upset/slip if climber were to hit something etc. or any type of immediate less loading of the supporting noose.
i sill like a step/dawg/swell under line, maybe even a later branch safety catch. We are dealing with 2 angles of pull leveraged i think. Around spar and then line is not inline with self; whereby would take a preceding half/marl in rigging as lengthwise to load? If any kind of flair etc. of wood contacted krab form downward angle, this is more clear that there are 2 arcs potentially on stiff device/ that resists bending/ therefore leverageable?
If off a health stob krab would have only 1 angle of potential sideways force through 3rd forcepoint applying power across tensioned forcepoints of the end pulls. Could even concieveably float some from wood; and jsut leverage Standing Part, not itself IMLHO. And, could not Backhand Hitch the Standing around krab for 2:1 angle; like if you set as shown and came around tree, not to loosen or slip side of krab but to 2:1 beend side?
Rupe, how easy was it to pull the rope out of the tree after your descent?
Do you reckon it could be done on say a Sitka Spruce at a height of 70ft?
I would imagine that this is the technique's downfall, there would be too much friction on the cinched rope, kind like velcro.
How could we get round this problem of excessive friction not allowing you to retrieve your rope after descent?
What about putting a polythene/plastic sheet underneath the cinched line?
Because it is just the initial slack that needs to be created, right, then the rope will pull easy.
Do you reckon it could be done on say a Sitka Spruce at a height of 70ft?
I would imagine that this is the technique's downfall, there would be too much friction on the cinched rope, kind like velcro.
How could we get round this problem of excessive friction not allowing you to retrieve your rope after descent?
What about putting a polythene/plastic sheet underneath the cinched line?
Because it is just the initial slack that needs to be created, right, then the rope will pull easy.
knudeNoggin
New member
[ QUOTE ]
A marline spike hitch is a slip knot with a marlin spike put into the loop.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem here is partly nomenclature: "Slip-knot" gets two interpretations,
depending on which "end" is loaded--load the one that slips, and what you
have is an Overhand (simple) Noose; load the other and you have a slipped Overhand
(stopper). And the Marlinespike H. is the Noose but with the knotted part in a
different arrangement, more around the object (the Overhand being rather
wide open). Per Ashley, the "Slip Knot" is the stopper--end is slipped for release.
The Overhand loopknot is like that pictured Fig.8 loop with one half turn fewer,
and hence simpler.
[ QUOTE ]
There are 3,854 knots referred to in Ashley's book of knots,
[/ QUOTE ]
Bladderash!! There are nowhere near that many, as you should well know.
Those numbers are assigned to IMAGES, and much of what is pictured wouldn't
count as knots to practical rope users (e.g., button knots, lanyard knots, sinnets,
braids, splices); much else is repeated (numerous intances of Clove Hitches, Constrictors,
Bowlines--diff. # for each occurrence).
As for the suitability of the Clove hitch in this application, my worry would be
about it's getting adequately tight to stay in position on the 'biner, esp. in 1/2"
arbo rope--vs. loosening maybe to have one side of the knot move around to
one long axis of the 'biner (is it a locking 'biner you'd want then?!).
*kN*
A marline spike hitch is a slip knot with a marlin spike put into the loop.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem here is partly nomenclature: "Slip-knot" gets two interpretations,
depending on which "end" is loaded--load the one that slips, and what you
have is an Overhand (simple) Noose; load the other and you have a slipped Overhand
(stopper). And the Marlinespike H. is the Noose but with the knotted part in a
different arrangement, more around the object (the Overhand being rather
wide open). Per Ashley, the "Slip Knot" is the stopper--end is slipped for release.
The Overhand loopknot is like that pictured Fig.8 loop with one half turn fewer,
and hence simpler.
[ QUOTE ]
There are 3,854 knots referred to in Ashley's book of knots,
[/ QUOTE ]
Bladderash!! There are nowhere near that many, as you should well know.
Those numbers are assigned to IMAGES, and much of what is pictured wouldn't
count as knots to practical rope users (e.g., button knots, lanyard knots, sinnets,
braids, splices); much else is repeated (numerous intances of Clove Hitches, Constrictors,
Bowlines--diff. # for each occurrence).
As for the suitability of the Clove hitch in this application, my worry would be
about it's getting adequately tight to stay in position on the 'biner, esp. in 1/2"
arbo rope--vs. loosening maybe to have one side of the knot move around to
one long axis of the 'biner (is it a locking 'biner you'd want then?!).
*kN*
If you're using a carabiner to clip into the other side of the line then it seems that it comes loose fairly easily regardless of height, unless it's a fairly large diameter stem or there's a lot of vines or other obstructions. On the other hand, if you've threaded the line through a midline knot then the rope on rope friction makes it a bit more difficult to release.
knudeNoggin
New member
Yes, esp. with the 'biner (part of the point of it, and to be able to simply clip
the line into it), the line should loosen readily; but what happens after that
might make the re-rigging step advisable--i.e., that upon a snag, it should be
easier to flip the line free from not-so-far below than otherwise. OTOH, one
might be able (might not, too!) to bet a better angle from the ground--YMMV.
--just a thought to put into the mental toolbox.
(^_^)
the line into it), the line should loosen readily; but what happens after that
might make the re-rigging step advisable--i.e., that upon a snag, it should be
easier to flip the line free from not-so-far below than otherwise. OTOH, one
might be able (might not, too!) to bet a better angle from the ground--YMMV.
--just a thought to put into the mental toolbox.
(^_^)
[ QUOTE ]
It has definetly improved. My first version creeped,my current one does not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Glad to hear it. I had used mine for several aerial rescues before the problem suddenly became apparant? I hadn't changed the rope it was supplied with. Is yours a webbing RG Tod?
It has definetly improved. My first version creeped,my current one does not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Glad to hear it. I had used mine for several aerial rescues before the problem suddenly became apparant? I hadn't changed the rope it was supplied with. Is yours a webbing RG Tod?
- Location
- United Kingdom
Rupe, how easy was it to pull the rope out of the tree after your descent?
Do you reckon it could be done on say a Sitka Spruce at a height of 70ft?
Very easy but it was a fairly smooth bark tree. On a spruce friction is going to be a problem, so I would say that the diameter of the stem is more of a factor than the height.
It sno different from removing an access line that has been installed from the ground and had an alpine butterfly fun up it to cinch round the branch that its on. In fact it should be easier because the rope is through a krab instead of through the center of the butterfly knot. That should reduce friction a bit.
Laz, with my ascender hitch I don't need to remove the pulley, the munter can fit below it. I doubt it took me a minute to set up, bet I suppose I only had 25 feet of rope to pull through.
Do you reckon it could be done on say a Sitka Spruce at a height of 70ft?
Very easy but it was a fairly smooth bark tree. On a spruce friction is going to be a problem, so I would say that the diameter of the stem is more of a factor than the height.
It sno different from removing an access line that has been installed from the ground and had an alpine butterfly fun up it to cinch round the branch that its on. In fact it should be easier because the rope is through a krab instead of through the center of the butterfly knot. That should reduce friction a bit.
Laz, with my ascender hitch I don't need to remove the pulley, the munter can fit below it. I doubt it took me a minute to set up, bet I suppose I only had 25 feet of rope to pull through.
I found the pulley a PITA with my set up Rupe; but if it wrks for you, thats great.
As for releasing the line, I've been using this technique every dismantle job for the past few years. It only got stuck the first time. But there is a knack to setting and release (I won't attempt an explanation through this medium).
As for releasing the line, I've been using this technique every dismantle job for the past few years. It only got stuck the first time. But there is a knack to setting and release (I won't attempt an explanation through this medium).
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