Unconscious and Suspended Upside Down

C

cooper10

Hello, I'm a new poster to this site but have been reading it for a while. Thanks for the knowledge sharing - very cool.

I've become more aware of Suspension Trauma, thanks in large part to Tom Dunlap's posts and discussions on this site. So I've learned, counterintuitive as it seems to me, that hanging vertically with legs dangling below you can be deadly.

Well now I wonder if hanging upside down is also dangerous, but I can't find much of anything online suggesting that it is.

Anyone?

1) Is it dangerous to be supported at an inverted angle or upside down?

2) What position does your current saddle leave you in if you go limp?

BTW, my Weaver wideback with a buttstrap supports my body about 45-50 degrees head down beyond horizontal, which feels nearly upside down to me.
 
I think since our harness are work posistioning all of them would put you up side down. I have also heard from high angle rescue EMT's that if a victom is unconsious and upside down to leave them like that and let them dowm. The reason being that suspension trama is unlikely in that posistion and if you were to move them to an upright posistion you may disturb a spinal injury. They were also not to conserned about blood rushing to the victom's head.
 
Being suspended in a work positioning harness is bad news. Try it yourself. Manufacturers speak of a limited amount of time you have to rescue an injured person from this position before restricted blood flow and circulation become a life-threatening problem.

In terms of medical/ scientific background info, there are a number of different papers and studies (see Tom's post), some of them with conflicting information. The truth seems to be that some of this stuff just isn't exactly known, or it's an on-going process accumulting facts based on a statistical database.

Still, the interesting thing for us as workers in the field is how a everyday occurence, a simple hand-saw cut - doesn't have to be serious - can suddenly turn into something much more urgent: Initially you feel fine, just nicked you arm, all of a sudden you feel dizzy, you faint... the guys on the ground are busy feeding the chipper and no one even realises something is wrong before ten minutes are over... not a good scenario, and not unrealistic.
 

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I agree Mark,Although depending on who you talk to they seem to have different opinions on the hanging upside down thing. I have heard different opinions on what to do from two different rescue professionals. Many years ago I cut my knee with a hand saw while prunning a tree. The saw tugged at pants, I looked at my pants to see a small rip. I move the rip to see if I cut myself to find my knee wide open, no pain and not a drop of blood. So I get to the ground and on the way to the hospital I almost went down. From the time I cut my knee to the time I almost fainted was around 10 minutes. It,s funny how we really never hear about any A.R.'s being performed. Has anybody needed to do one? Oh yeah my knee needed 13 stiches and 2 staples, stupid hand saw, stupid young know it all climber.
 
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stupid young know it all climber.

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Ha! I'm glad I was never one of those!!! /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
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It,s funny how we really never hear about any A.R.'s being performed. Has anybody needed to do one?

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Thats a good question Tod, i've never had to do a real rescue thankfully! I heard that Beddes had to rescue a friend after cutting himself with a handsaw, he fainted before he could get himself out of the tree. I don't know all the details on that...Mark maybe you know more about that?? I agree that there are different opions out there about hanging upside down and i just followed a first aid coarse where they said that the protical for those situations has changed and that its not that bad for you.

Jelte
 
I had to un-stuck my apprentice once. It was fun looking back, but very urgent at the time. His flipline got stuck after he sliped off a limb. He was unable to pan out or pull in his rope or flipline. The saddle was compressing his lower ribs and was quite pailfull. could've been bad, but turned into a great learning experiance for him and me.
 
Thanks for the input all!

It's kind of a bummer that the jury's still out on whether hanging upside down is bad for you or not. In the meantime, I'd just as soon hang parallel to the ground if suddenly incapacitated. That is, if I have a choice - and I may not.

I asked the good folks at New Tribe about it. They recognize hanging inverted in the saddle as a problem and call it "overbalance". It's even in their FAQ here. To correct it they recommend a chest harness, which hooks to an ascender on the climbing line...? ...something like that. I really don't want another line to hassle with and I'm sure I'd want it off when I enter the tree, so I doubt that will work.

I talked to a couple people at Buckingham about it. I was told that hanging inverted from a saddle was not uncommon and given a friendly reminder that tree work is dangerous (grrrrr). The resident climber there did offer the advice that their "pro-series" line of saddles enables you to adjust the center of gravity quite a bit as the upper belt and lower attachments (leg slings, buttstrap, bosun seat ...) are separate.

So, is there an easier way? Maybe suspenders with a sternum D attached somewhere to my center D's? Will that make me a hunchback when I try to stand upright? How about 50 lb. boots?! This sucks!

I guess I'll save up and maybe try one of Buckingham's pro-series Versatiles. I wish I had a spot around here where I could go sit and hang in the saddle before I bought it. I guess I'll just have to make sure the return policy is a good one.

Thanks again, coop
 
Most dist. will allow you to return their saddles in a new condition.
Also, one of the main problems with the inverted hang as I understand it, is that, if unconscious, your legs are still hanging below horizontal as they will be bent downward, which still allows the blood to pool in the thighs, and of course worsening the trauma condition. So according to the article Tom posted, one of the main solutions is to get the knees lifted to horizontal or above, as soon as possible.
With that in mind, if you're not unconscious, you can try to manuever yourself to avoid somewhat the onset of the syndrome.
The point then Coop is that the angle of hang while unconscious that a particular saddle puts you into, eventhough inverted, may still leave your legs below horizontal. So the saddle may not be the answer, but somehow or someone lifting your knees to or above horizontal is a solution according to the article. Of course if you're conscious they recommend standing and getting the weight off your legs.
My two cents.
 
i have been on this page before and read the article mention numerous times here, but i can no longer find it. does anyone remember where it was located?
CharlieB and Mark B state that it was in Tom's post, but i can not find his post
 
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