Tree appraisal

evo

evo

Been here much more than a while
Location
My Island, WA
I got a call from a person this week. I assume that her brother and her inherited some land which was sub divided between the two. He had a logger come out in which he green lighted the felling of about 80 100 year + douglas fir and cedar trees on her section with out permission.

She would like me to do a value replacement cost appraisal.

I already see three major hangups

#1) some of the stumps have been dug up and are piled ready to burn
#2) DBH measurements are likely unattainable because the logs are off site and milled by now
#3) no way to do a condition rating because the trees are long gone

Additionally I am having a hard time coming up with a species rating. I got a douglas fir for 80, but that is from university data outside the native range. I haven't found a rating for western red cedar aka giant arborvitae.

Any help/thoughts are very welcome!
 
There’s no historical photos ? Archive, estate documentation, etc ?

You may have luck getting a forester to assess the site using past satellite imagery. They can often deduce tree heights over terrain as well as corroborate tree diameters based on a combination of canopy spread and height. I don’t know the professional term for a person but a friends dad does this for a living. Using a computer and 3D goggles, he demarks areas in a forest based on heights, species, age, etc.

Edit : find out which mill got them. If it’s going to court, issue a sub poena. Every mill is going to document the exact length and size of timber they receive and produce a receipt / invoice for the value and volume of the timber
 
When discussing timber such as this you can go through all the work to get the appraised value of the trees and the courts will just throw it out (if it gets that far). That number for 80 trees can be absolutely astronomical, not saying they weren’t worth that to the owner, but it can be huge. You might also look into stumpage value (value of the timber on the stump).
The reason courts don’t like our appraisaed value is it’s a theoretical replacement value for a tree. It has several places were user opinion can effect the formula drastically. Conversely, the reason they like stumpage is it is an actual dollar figure that someone will or did pay for an object.
In addition, to confuse things just a bit more, someone (if it goes to court) may actually use a real estate extrapolation method which takes the value of the property and breaks it down as a whole into the value of everything on site. I believe 20% is allocated to landscape, hardscape and trees. Using our appraisal method I fear you will exceed the entire property value (or at least that 20%) and your work will be for not.
Whenever I have been called for something like this the owner gets two values, our appraised and the real estate extrapolation (stumpage isn’t as prevalent here).

Ps in courts stumpage is normally paid at 3 times the going rate.
 
flyingsquirrel25 said:
When discussing timber such as this you can go through all the work to get the appraised value of the trees and the courts will just throw it out (if it gets that far). That number for 80 trees can be absolutely astronomical, not saying they weren’t worth that to the owner, but it can be huge. You might also look into stumpage value (value of the timber on the stump).
The reason courts don’t like our appraisaed value is it’s a theoretical replacement value for a tree. It has several places were user opinion can effect the formula drastically. Conversely, the reason they like stumpage is it is an actual dollar figure that someone will or did pay for an object.
In addition, to confuse things just a bit more, someone (if it goes to court) may actually use a real estate extrapolation method which takes the value of the property and breaks it down as a whole into the value of everything on site. I believe 20% is allocated to landscape, hardscape and trees. Using our appraisal method I fear you will exceed the entire property value (or at least that 20%) and your work will be for not.
Whenever I have been called for something like this the owner gets two values, our appraised and the real estate extrapolation (stumpage isn’t as prevalent here).

Ps in courts stumpage is normally paid at 3 times the going rate.
Click to expand...

Indeed, there are so many different appraisal methods and so many different values that one can measure with regards to appraisal.

@evo please keep us posted with the progress of this case
 
Agreed...you've gotta use stumpage value if the trees were in the woods and not a residential landscape.
 
No offense, evo...do you have credentials that will back what you do? Is this legal, or just between the two of them to discuss.

I don't know much about valuation.

One customer I referred to a Registered Consulting Arborist, locally, and rather that the $1,500 offered by the insurance to keep it, she got $7500+, for value, plus $2500 for full removal costs.

Another customer has timber-tresspass stuff going on less than 1/2 mile from my house. The neighboring developer wanted some trees (60) gone.

There is timber value and landscape value...part of which may have to do with the tax-status of the parcel.
Is this 2 acres or 2000 or? Residential or forest?
 
Honestly in a woodland setting, I'd look for an SAF Certified Forester before an RCA. Or better yet, find somebody who has both credentials. Which value is most appropriate (and who to hire to find it) may be best advised by an attorney before either expert witness is hired.
 
I agree with what everyone is saying. This has already gone to an lawyer. This is the lawyers request. I am not sure if it will wind up in court or if this is just to prove a point, however I feel the need to treat it as if it would.

I am already feeling the need to speak directly with the lawyer. From my understanding they are asking for a report detailing species, age, replanting costs, and replacement value.

The site is rural, and likely small acreage.

So back to the original three questions?!

@southsoundtree I am a certified arborist. And yes I do not have much if any experience in tree appraisals. I’ve already made calls including a BMCA to see if I can pass it off to them and work under them while learning more about the details.

One big red flag is she is pushing for this to be done ASAP as they are going to be burning the stumps soon. So obviously there are many more pieces to the puzzle which I’m not aware of. Also very secretive of the site, only giving me vague area location. I did finally get an address/directions.
 
IMHO, the lawyer should be your client...not the client.

If they insist on replacement cost methods, I'd probably do it after written confirmation that the book doesn't recommend such for woodland settings.

Are you using "The Guide"? If so, when was the damage done? If before new book was published I'd use 9th edition. If more recently, I'd use 10th...
 
I just did a initial site visit this afternoon. The entire situation is a mess. The client is a educator of an estate trust. Her brother who lived adjacent hired a logging out fit to log some of his trees. The bonused the trees which are on the estate. The brother fraudulently signed the DNR permits and had the majority of the trees stumped. He pocketed all the profit as well.

Most of the stumps have been dug and in various piles. It would take an excavator to come in and break the piles up for cataloging.

I asked if the lawyer has any experience in timber trespass or appraisal cases. The answer was a flat NO. This is evident in his request for a Certified Arborist report detailing the specs of replacement cost tree appraisal.

I’ve spoken to a retired forester friend and he came to the conclusion that yes this falls more into arbor land than forestry. Think Pacific Northwest scale, where most logging occurs in the scale of quarter sections or larger. This is about 60-80 trees, and perhaps x3 if one were to account for both sides of the property.

I am thinking that a solid report including stumpage, timber value, replant x3, watering, thinning, and other management costs is the most appropriate. This also would include a review on soil surveys to determine if its “prime” timberland.

Other notes is the trees growth rate was fairly great. Also the trees were fairly evenly spaced and open grown. It was mentioned that there wasn’t much value in timber due to the open grown nature, many large knots, taper, etc.

This is about where it’s at. I discussed my limitations, prices, and the fact that the project would be costly. It’s also worth mentioning that the clients main motivation is to prove a point to her brother, and desire for it to stay out of court.

It’s a mess!
 
Your three issues are not at all insurmountable issues to an experienced plant appraiser. This is absolutely a case where the plaintiff can either pony up to hire an expert litigant arborist/plant appraiser....or take their lumps.

Additionally the issues of trespass make this a case not for the inexperienced. A suitable litigant/appraisal arborist will probably know a good attorney to carry the ball on this. Your clients "ham & egg" family law attorney is obviously not that person.
 
Let's not jump to the litigation option. Yes good idea to reach out to someone experienced. 0

Trespass is not uncommon, and is pretty much outside the scope of appraisal. But I still share this with clients:
NORTH CAROLINA LAW
I am not a lawyer, but I saw this on the internet: From Hicks Master’s thesis, Penn State University,

North Carolina has a typical timber trespass statute that awards one level of damages for timber theft or arson. N.C. GEN. STAT. § 1-539 awards double damages for a timber trespass that occurs "without the consent and permission of the bona fide owner" or an act of arson if a defendant "willfully and intentionally set on fire, or cause to be set on fire" timber on the land of another.

When timber trespass results from improperly marked or located property lines, N.C. GEN. STAT. § 1-539 entitles "any firm or corporation, acting under contract, to reimbursement from the party letting the contract." Additionally, N.C. GEN. STAT. § 14-128 considers anyone committing a "willful" timber trespass guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor…”.
 
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guymayor said:
...Additionally, N.C. GEN. STAT. § 14-128 considers anyone committing a "willful" timber trespass guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor…”.
Click to expand...
Ever hear of that actually being prosecuted?

That is pretty weak. If I steal a car, regardless of value it is a felony. If that is all the teeth there is in the NC law, sounds like I could steal $250,000 of timber and only risk a Class 1 misdemeanor and compensation - especially if I just mark the property lines wrong first.

Ohio law does allow for more severe prosecution based on value, but it is very rare that a prosecutor is willing to take it on even in cases that seem (from my perspective) very "open and shut".
 
Why yes, let's jump to the litigation option, if a competent attorney in that realm says it's a viable option. I'd much rather stay in my lane than dispense tunnel vision advice in a realm in which I'm clearly not an expert. Much as I'd take a dim view of a neophyte saying "I read a copy of a Detective Dendro column in The Arborists' News once, and now I'm going to prescribe RCX as a surefire remedy for every tree I see."
 
Competent attorneys in this realm are almost as scarce as hen's teeth. O and the teeth in the statute may be only in the threat of doubling the damages. That gets people's attention.

Pasting a statute is not giving legal advice--that has been asked and answered, in court! The consultant's lane is narrowed more by lack of experience and confidence than any real barriers. Our work can make the attorney's role moot.

Good luck getting some help, evo. If the trees were in view of a potential homesite, that could raise the location rating.
 
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I think I would suggest to your potential client that they have his/her attorney ascertain what profit was paid out for the timber, and have your clients attorney go after that dollar amount (or double). This may end up being a real headache for you, because if it goes to court, you can be subpoenaed, often without compensation, and it will likely be settled without a judgement in any case.
 
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I've been subpoenaed dozens of times; always compensated. "often"?????
Good idea to find out the $ received. A consultant can do this just as easily as a lawyer. Yet another example of the consultant's role being greater than imagined by the less experienced.
 
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guymayor said:
I've been subpoenaed dozens of times; always compensated. "often"?????
Good idea to find out the $ received. A consultant can do this just as easily as a lawyer. Yet another example of the consultant's role being greater than imagined by the less experienced.
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Curious Guy...did you get an actual subpoena or were you contacted/retained by the attorney as an expert witness? There is no obligation to compensate somebody who is subpoenaed. It hasn't happened to me, but I don't imagine they would find a terribly helpful expert in such a circumstance.
 
guymayor said:
.....

Good luck getting some help, evo. If the trees were in view of a potential homesite, that could raise the location rating.
Click to expand...
Isn't anything a potential homesite. Or potentially in the front yard of a future President. Or potentially a tree that a treaty of lasting national significance is signed under? Etc...

If the home site was already laid out, yes...I could certainly see that changing the value. Probably goes back to a question for the lawyers. Present to them the potential values for the tree (timber or landscape). Let them decide which one they want to fight for and get them that number.
 
Just planning a homesite is enough; it does not have to be laid out. Similarly, if the trees were near a trail used for passive recreation, or in a hunting area, that can affect location rating. It might boil down to a landscape/forest dichotomy, but typically there are other values to consider.
 
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