Topped or drop Crotched? And what's the future?

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Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future

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So whats this in the pic?

(not intentionally hijacking the tread, made this some weeks ago and had(have) no time or like to find the right tread)

TOPPED or DROP CROTCHED?

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Well, I copied your pic, changed it to black and white, enlarged it and then had a good look at the cuts and laterals.

Many cuts were to laterals well below 1/3 dia of the cut branch, some cuts were made to "fit in" with the rest of the cuts but no lateral present so they were stub cuts or topping cuts.

So to answer your question I would say a combination of the two ... it's an attempt at a drop crotch.

What is the species?

The question I have is why do that?

So the canopy has been reduced about a year or twos growth with a gazillion wounds to seal. The probability of resprouting is high which will result in faster, longer and more growth than may have occured with a natural canopy ... however, it may be that the work was done to remove previous topping cuts that had sprouts but I doubt it.

Now the tree has to not only find the reources to grow stems and leaves but also seal off all those wounds.

All that has to be done now is a large dose of N fertilizer coming into spring so the thing drains its food storage by growing leaf and becomes a homing beacon for bugs and insects.

If that were a private job for the home-owner I would have talked them out of it ... waste of money and trees resources.
 
Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future

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Many cuts were to laterals well below 1/3 dia of the cut branch, some cuts were made to "fit in" with the rest of the cuts but no lateral present so they were stub cuts or topping cuts.

So to answer your question I would say a combination of the two ... it's an attempt at a drop crotch.

What is the species?

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Beeches, between 80-120 years.
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The question I have is why do that?

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Who knows? That day i went to a farmer to get to us with a tractor to pull our equipment out the mud. I saw those trees and made a pic. The farmers wife asked me why and i explaned my concerns about future development for those trees. (excessive pruning causing root decay, prone to fungus etc., possible sunscald in upper branches, dieing back of branches not pruned to a lateral etc etc.) I estimated that between 10-25 years decay can happen and fruiting fungus should be looked after at the base of the tree.[ QUOTE ]




So the canopy has been reduced about a year or twos growth with a gazillion wounds to seal. The probability of resprouting is high which will result in faster, longer and more growth than may have occured with a natural canopy ... however, it may be that the work was done to remove previous topping cuts that had sprouts but I doubt it.

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A year of two growth? More like 20-40 years of growth. The crown is reduced between 4-6 meters i quess. For a mature tree thats decades to grow. I doubt the resproutng in outher crown, laterals in place will grow though. The inner crown has some sprouts and smaller branches but these could be given better change to devellop by lighter and a fased pruning. (and preventing high amounts of root decay.)[ QUOTE ]


Now the tree has to not only find the reources to grow stems and leaves but also seal off all those wounds.

All that has to be done now is a large dose of N fertilizer coming into spring so the thing drains its food storage by growing leaf and becomes a homing beacon for bugs and insects.

[/ QUOTE ]

You suggest to give a nitrate fertilizer to 'feed' the tree and spare its stored recourses?[ QUOTE ]


If that were a private job for the home-owner I would have talked them out of it ... waste of money and trees resources.

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It was a private job and later that day i heared that the oncle of the farmers wife lives there. He just wanted the trees to be pruned as his house was wet all day and walls didnt dry up. For me this is an example of a hackjob. They could be pruned back without removing 60% or more of the foliage. Done in 2 or 3 fases it would be possible to get an new smaller crown from interiour branches. All this with minimal stress to the root system. Now they just have to wait and hope the tree will cope the damage.
 
Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future

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Beeches, between 80-120 years.


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Gee, that's getting on, not a nice thing to do to trees that old.

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I estimated that between 10-25 years decay can happen and fruiting fungus should be looked after at the base of the tree.

A year of two growth? More like 20-40 years of growth. The crown is reduced between 4-6 meters i quess. For a mature tree thats decades to grow. I doubt the resproutng in outher crown, laterals in place will grow though. The inner crown has some sprouts and smaller branches but these could be given better change to devellop by lighter and a fased pruning. (and preventing high amounts of root decay.)

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Crikey, things take a while to grow on those trees over there.

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You suggest to give a nitrate fertilizer to 'feed' the tree and spare its stored recourses?

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Heck no, DO NOT FERTILZE with high nitrogen, I was being smart arse ... that will induce abundant leaf gowth and expend resources. It's just that it's what a lot of people do, prune then water/fertilze ... a common misconception which leads to more problems.

[ QUOTE ]
For me this is an example of a hackjob. They could be pruned back without removing 60% or more of the foliage. Done in 2 or 3 fases it would be possible to get an new smaller crown from interiour branches. All this with minimal stress to the root system. Now they just have to wait and hope the tree will cope the damage.

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Geez, they take off 60%, that's huge. Looked like the canopy had plenty of room anyway, sometimes the hardest thing to do is nothing ... people feel like they have to cut something off a tree to make it better /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I was treading lightly though coz I thought you did it. But now I know you didn't I feel much better, there's some people/companies that just do stuff like that as standard procedure for every tree every few years ... apparently all trees can benefit from reduction and pruning. /forum/images/graemlins/flag_bs.gif
 
Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future

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We have probably all seen trees that have been reduced correctly i.e. proper laterals, not too large a cut and so on... , only to have the tree trimmer go and cut the laterals in half yet. I assume that it is done to give the tree a better overall shape

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The only reason to reduce those laterals is to prevent breakage.
 
Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future

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The only reason to reduce those laterals is to prevent breakage.

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Aye aye Captain. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Just asking as we don't have that species here where I am.

Beech, pretty good/strong? Chances of it breaking?

These trimmers must have thought every one of those had a chance of breaking ... that's every branch!

A lot of our trees that grow like that form have little chance of breaking, perhaps the odd branch breaks under severe weather but they look like pretty solid stout trees.
 
Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future

Beech do have a stout, storm-resistant form by nature, but they do not codit all that well. With scale and bark canker getting common, that pruning jobmay predispose it to death.
 
Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future?

The first order of pruning harm prevetion relates to pruning cut diameter.
General rule of thumb: pruning cuts 2 inches or larger result in risk of decay; pruning cuts 4 inches diameter or larger result in risk of cavity.
Cut location branch bark ridge or at lateral is important but second in importance to diameter; what ever name attached to it e.g. topping, drop crotch, crown reduction., etc.
 
Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future

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Too bad the money isn't spent burying the lines, IMHO.

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Common uneducated answer.

Do you realise that it costs up to 4 times as much to bury the lines as opposed to existing overhead?

Have you ever thought about Root damage that is associated with buried lines?

What will happen WHEN the line needs to be replaced and everybody has all their pretty landscape oner the lines?
 
Re: Topped or drop Crotched? And what\'s the future

Interesting.

472 views 29 posts prior to this one and 27 votes.

The votes are really close, like 14 reckon topped and 13 reckon drop crotched.

So, our perception is that reduction, even to laterals, appears to many people as topping.

True topping (undeniable and blatant) is when you cut internodal or between laterals ... more so as the crow flies ... where it suits you, all branches etc evenly or domed etc. You can reduce the ht of a tree by cutting to laterals but at the end of the day many consider that topping anyway.

Interesting. I suppose cutting to a lateral is better than cutting anywhere else but still pretty useless for the tree. That lateral will then assume apical dominance, probably wont be as strong or look as good as the natural one you cut and may have to be dropped crotched itself down the track anyway due to it getting taller.

I'm not getting into the debate just interested to see the response and perception.

Arbos be aware, drop crotched reductions appear to be topping in approx 50% of the arb world's eyes! Ha, I only do that on clearance for stuff not the entire canopy. But I suppose if you had a defect that req'd it, it is an option for extended life rather than imminent failure ... and of course habitat if the tree's in a safe enough place.

Good stuff, thanks for the answering the poll.
 

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