Always tied in twice when using a chainsaw. Not always with a handsaw. The chainsaw is something that can do a lot more damage. I am still young and want to be healthy and around for a while longer. It's hard sometimes to find a good second tie in at times but I figure it'll save my butt some day.
Tie in Twice Stupid
- Thread starter treesandsurf
- Start date
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
T.I.T.S. is the preffered, profeesional failsafe method. this not only gives back up, but if the duality is set at opposing angles, more stability when using a power cutting device around thin threads that support your life.
i don't necessarily use the backup with a handsaw. Another stabilizing technique for either or, is to throw lanyard under what you are standing on so it returns to opposite side/hand; tighten up with bent knees, then stragihten legs to get the opposing, stabilizng forces of the lock. This doesn't even route much of the force of the equal and opposites seeking each other thru your back to strain it, but back should still be straight.
Run the drill; if it takes tooo long, ya ain't done it enough to have it polished!
i don't necessarily use the backup with a handsaw. Another stabilizing technique for either or, is to throw lanyard under what you are standing on so it returns to opposite side/hand; tighten up with bent knees, then stragihten legs to get the opposing, stabilizng forces of the lock. This doesn't even route much of the force of the equal and opposites seeking each other thru your back to strain it, but back should still be straight.
Run the drill; if it takes tooo long, ya ain't done it enough to have it polished!
- Location
- Longmont, CO
I understand the rule to use two tie-in points. I understand it is good practice, but I don't think it is always practical.
In the context of removals, and most certainly trim jobs, I prefer to hit a high throw shot from the ground and install my line. I never spike up a tree with just a lanyard.
Now, I will be honest here. When I have a high high tie-in, and I am delimbing on my way up the tree, I often don't use my lanyard as a second tie-in. Knowing I am suspended above my work I just can't imagine how I would cut my life line in those situations. However, there are positions where I do indeed use 2 tie-in points. For example, I will use the lanyard to avoind a swing while cutting with the saw.
As I read it, the Jeff Jepson story, is where he was delimbing a Jack Pine with just his lanyard. He accidently cut his lanyard. In a tight crown, like any conifer, two tie-in points are a great idea.--I don't question the rule there.
Catch my drift?
In the context of removals, and most certainly trim jobs, I prefer to hit a high throw shot from the ground and install my line. I never spike up a tree with just a lanyard.
Now, I will be honest here. When I have a high high tie-in, and I am delimbing on my way up the tree, I often don't use my lanyard as a second tie-in. Knowing I am suspended above my work I just can't imagine how I would cut my life line in those situations. However, there are positions where I do indeed use 2 tie-in points. For example, I will use the lanyard to avoind a swing while cutting with the saw.
As I read it, the Jeff Jepson story, is where he was delimbing a Jack Pine with just his lanyard. He accidently cut his lanyard. In a tight crown, like any conifer, two tie-in points are a great idea.--I don't question the rule there.
Catch my drift?
spot on IMO
[ QUOTE ]
Knowing I am suspended above my work I just can't imagine how I would cut my life line in those situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Never heard of kickback?
I've seen it happen to a climber in an adjacent tree. When he was tied in with just one anchor rope above him, he fortunately did not cut all the way through his line and he was only 8 feet off the ground at the start of the crown lift.
Now imagine he was 95ft up and cut through his top anchor rope, and he had no backup.
Two tie in points at all times when using a chainsaw.
C'mon notahacker, you want plenty more years of working in trees with that new truck, right?
Knowing I am suspended above my work I just can't imagine how I would cut my life line in those situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Never heard of kickback?
I've seen it happen to a climber in an adjacent tree. When he was tied in with just one anchor rope above him, he fortunately did not cut all the way through his line and he was only 8 feet off the ground at the start of the crown lift.
Now imagine he was 95ft up and cut through his top anchor rope, and he had no backup.
Two tie in points at all times when using a chainsaw.
C'mon notahacker, you want plenty more years of working in trees with that new truck, right?
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
True, if line is stretched above you and you are cutting below you it is pretty hard to cut your line. But, it is not impossible for some kind of upset to happen like you slipping, wind, branch hanging up and getting a kind of reverse, muscle spasm, bees etc.; and especially if rigging and this branch can fold sideways, up etc.
edit; AxeKnot was psoting at same time and shows another good point i missed; kickback!
Then; you are hanging your life by a 1/2" thread; and have a power cutting piece of equipment wandering unpredictably in the same square of space. Be a control freak; take command and rule it out. this thing we do that binds us together; hanging by the thread, 50' up playing with a power cutting tool that could instantly cut the thread is freaking crazy.
Take it to the next level; cuz "Quality never costs as much as it saves."; get my drift?
(sorry fer the cheap shot, but that was just tooo easy; couldn't help it!). Live long and prosper!
edit; AxeKnot was psoting at same time and shows another good point i missed; kickback!
Then; you are hanging your life by a 1/2" thread; and have a power cutting piece of equipment wandering unpredictably in the same square of space. Be a control freak; take command and rule it out. this thing we do that binds us together; hanging by the thread, 50' up playing with a power cutting tool that could instantly cut the thread is freaking crazy.
Take it to the next level; cuz "Quality never costs as much as it saves."; get my drift?
- Location
- Louisville, KY
I have the bad habit of having only one point of attachment most of the time. While I usually pay attention to my insticts more than other's rules, I am reminded every once in awhile why two tie in points are a great idea. After throwing the top from a white pine, I had one more lateral to cut on the other side of the stem. I positioned myself and lanyarded in (really only to cut comfortably. I didn't have great visual of my cut (up and towards the stem). I cut through my climbing line quick. It scared the crap out of me. I know that many climbers don't like to say when the F* up, but I don't mind. Since this happened only a few months ago, it is still fresh in my mind.
I like:
* 2 pts of attachment for most situations
* steel core lanyard (if I'm that close to the wires, I'll find switch to a rope lanyard)
Axeknot, I know you're the wave of the future when it comes to safety, but I may still need a bit of convincing for two climbing lines.
I like:
* 2 pts of attachment for most situations
* steel core lanyard (if I'm that close to the wires, I'll find switch to a rope lanyard)
Axeknot, I know you're the wave of the future when it comes to safety, but I may still need a bit of convincing for two climbing lines.
RogerM
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Louisville,KY USA
As far as tying in twice when using a chainsaw, 90-95 percent. There are times when I feel safer actually without a lanyard. Good habits are as hard to break as bad ones.
I've had quite a few accidents.
My worst was sticking a 2 inch gaff in my calf luckily it missed the bone. It went right in to the hilt. This happened during a small takedown. Had a bad kickout fell down the stem 6 ft, unfortunately my right spike headed for my left calf, I came to an abrupt hault jarring against the stem and felt the pain all the way up my spine. The worst thing was having to pull it out and bear hug down the stem one spike style(almost impossible) Bleeding profusely. Luckily it was a small tree, 40 ft descent.
Thats one of many reasons why I'm more safety orientated these days.
My worst was sticking a 2 inch gaff in my calf luckily it missed the bone. It went right in to the hilt. This happened during a small takedown. Had a bad kickout fell down the stem 6 ft, unfortunately my right spike headed for my left calf, I came to an abrupt hault jarring against the stem and felt the pain all the way up my spine. The worst thing was having to pull it out and bear hug down the stem one spike style(almost impossible) Bleeding profusely. Luckily it was a small tree, 40 ft descent.
Thats one of many reasons why I'm more safety orientated these days.
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
[ QUOTE ]
Best to build good habits by being consistent. We're talking about a few seconds here, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the way I started climbing, by building good habits. I don't even think about using one tie-in point.
Chris
Best to build good habits by being consistent. We're talking about a few seconds here, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the way I started climbing, by building good habits. I don't even think about using one tie-in point.
Chris
- Location
- Hawaii
the main thing it seems is the habit forming thing, sort of like the whole one handed chainsaw discussion. I noticed I was getting more and more into the habit of not using the lanyard, probably because it takes a second more to attach it and you are freer to move about the tree without it ( I know no good excuse) but I'd bet there are a lot of people out there who are guilty of it too...
but I think it's important to develop the habit to use it but not necessarily be limited by it also, there's so many crazy weird situations you get yourself in it's almost impossible to put a blanket statement on how you have to work. but I'm gonna make a better effort to tie in twice...
axeknot, I heard of a guy who gaffed his forearm, yeeks! I'm skeptical on the two climbing line + lanyard, maybe in rare circumstances but sounds goofy to me
jp
but I think it's important to develop the habit to use it but not necessarily be limited by it also, there's so many crazy weird situations you get yourself in it's almost impossible to put a blanket statement on how you have to work. but I'm gonna make a better effort to tie in twice...
axeknot, I heard of a guy who gaffed his forearm, yeeks! I'm skeptical on the two climbing line + lanyard, maybe in rare circumstances but sounds goofy to me
jp
- Location
- Western Norway
When teaching European Treeworker classes it is mandatory with two tie in points to make a good stable work position. Ropes kan take 22kN but, as Mark Bridge demonstrate at his workshops, it will breake from a quick hit by the handsaw when loaded with more than 200kg. This situation may occur with a fall way under fall factor one. Scenario; one tie in point, slip while cutting with handsaw, peak load 200kg, waving with hands and handsaw to regain control and hits rope at peak load - rope snaps.
From this year on we will also teach the use of two ropes in treeclimbing; one for ascent / descent and left as rescue rope in the tree, and one for work. In case of rescue operations there is a safe, undamaged rope preset in the tree.
Svein
From this year on we will also teach the use of two ropes in treeclimbing; one for ascent / descent and left as rescue rope in the tree, and one for work. In case of rescue operations there is a safe, undamaged rope preset in the tree.
Svein
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
You are most likely to make a miss-take when fatigued, distracted, complacent etc.; this is especially the times when ingrained habits will carry you thru/over these periods safely. The cost of these habits must be pre-paid; before these risk times; let alone not so high risk times, when the numbers just catch up to ya.
Mangoes
Participating member
- Location
- Greater Toronto Area
[ QUOTE ]
You are most likely to make a miss-take when fatigued, distracted, complacent etc.; this is especially the times when ingrained habits will carry you thru/over these periods safely. The cost of these habits must be pre-paid; before these risk times; let alone not so high risk times, when the numbers just catch up to ya.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like to call this your 'default mode', each climber will do this in periods of great intensity; climbing competitions being a great example. It is important to note that your day to day experience and habits define your 'default mode', thereby each individual will have different 'default mode'. Some better, safer than others of course.
You are most likely to make a miss-take when fatigued, distracted, complacent etc.; this is especially the times when ingrained habits will carry you thru/over these periods safely. The cost of these habits must be pre-paid; before these risk times; let alone not so high risk times, when the numbers just catch up to ya.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like to call this your 'default mode', each climber will do this in periods of great intensity; climbing competitions being a great example. It is important to note that your day to day experience and habits define your 'default mode', thereby each individual will have different 'default mode'. Some better, safer than others of course.
- Location
- Longmont, CO
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Knowing I am suspended above my work I just can't imagine how I would cut my life line in those situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Never heard of kickback?
Two tie in points at all times when using a chainsaw.
C'mon notahacker, you want plenty more years of working in trees with that new truck, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
I like it!
Yes, I certainly want many years with that truck. Yes, kickback is a valid point. It is a possibility of having kickback.--Maybe 1 in 50,000 cuts? Maybe greater?
Out of the thousands of cuts I have made with a chainsaw in a tree, I have never had a kickback.--That is a subject on proper chainsaw technique.--IMO I'll save the lecture on proper chainsaw usage and how to avoid a kickback for later.
[ QUOTE ]
Knowing I am suspended above my work I just can't imagine how I would cut my life line in those situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Never heard of kickback?
Two tie in points at all times when using a chainsaw.
C'mon notahacker, you want plenty more years of working in trees with that new truck, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
I like it!
Out of the thousands of cuts I have made with a chainsaw in a tree, I have never had a kickback.--That is a subject on proper chainsaw technique.--IMO I'll save the lecture on proper chainsaw usage and how to avoid a kickback for later.
- Location
- Longmont, CO
[ QUOTE ]
Take it to the next level; cuz "Quality never costs as much as it saves."; get my drift?
(sorry fer the cheap shot, but that was just tooo easy; couldn't help it!). Live long and prosper!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ouch!
However, I think of quality as in how I finished a tree after working in it. Or, not putting a log through a deck. Or, cleaning up better than when I got there. Etc...
Again, I use a second tie-in when my balance is not stable (that is common sense). If I am hanging plumb, I don't always see the need to have a second tie-in. Then, if I have observed and think it is perfectly safe to cut without a second tie-in, then I will do it.
We have a dangerous occupation, no doubt! There will never be anyone out here who does everything to the book.--No one!
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Take it to the next level; cuz "Quality never costs as much as it saves."; get my drift?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ouch!
However, I think of quality as in how I finished a tree after working in it. Or, not putting a log through a deck. Or, cleaning up better than when I got there. Etc...
Again, I use a second tie-in when my balance is not stable (that is common sense). If I am hanging plumb, I don't always see the need to have a second tie-in. Then, if I have observed and think it is perfectly safe to cut without a second tie-in, then I will do it.
We have a dangerous occupation, no doubt! There will never be anyone out here who does everything to the book.--No one!
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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