I don't see how the belay on a free climb would really be that beneficial in an average work day. It's just as easy to free climb and just keep alternating between climb line and lanyard. I see Tom's point on the grigri. What about using that porta wrap as your anchor at the base with it locked off? I know an old school guy that is now using that as his anchor with a floating pulley setup.
SRT trunk belays
- Thread starter Tom Dunlap
- Start date
PUC, The benefits come from not being exposed to a fall through clipping and unclipping, and pure focus on the climb without having to tend slack.
My alternative is to use the frog with branches for hands and feet - the Croll self tails. All you have to do is flick the handled ascender up the line. You can use it to pull on or stick your foot int the loop where required. This frees up the ground worker to fuel the saws (read 'chat up the client').
Just remember the cut through risk of working off a line belayed at the ground - climber or ground crew can inadvertantly cut it. It doesn't discount the method, but special briefing is required, especially for a crew programmed to DdRT systems (i.e. easy to switch into 'no risk to climber while I'm cutting' mode).
My alternative is to use the frog with branches for hands and feet - the Croll self tails. All you have to do is flick the handled ascender up the line. You can use it to pull on or stick your foot int the loop where required. This frees up the ground worker to fuel the saws (read 'chat up the client').
Just remember the cut through risk of working off a line belayed at the ground - climber or ground crew can inadvertantly cut it. It doesn't discount the method, but special briefing is required, especially for a crew programmed to DdRT systems (i.e. easy to switch into 'no risk to climber while I'm cutting' mode).
So the 'Z' is king of Arb in the USA Mahk. Thanks for that.
As you've noticed, in the UK the WAHR05 are king over Arboriculture. We have the Arb 'Guide to Good Climbing Practice', which is guidance on typical arb work techniques with no guidance on how to practically comply with the WAHR05 i.e. not a guide to good climbing practice at all!
Most prefer to bury their heads in the sand. Even at instructor level, the issues are ignored or impracticable measures are implemented that can increase risk.
As you've noticed, in the UK the WAHR05 are king over Arboriculture. We have the Arb 'Guide to Good Climbing Practice', which is guidance on typical arb work techniques with no guidance on how to practically comply with the WAHR05 i.e. not a guide to good climbing practice at all!
Most prefer to bury their heads in the sand. Even at instructor level, the issues are ignored or impracticable measures are implemented that can increase risk.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
[ QUOTE ]
So the 'Z' is king of Arb in the USA Mahk.
[/ QUOTE ]
The way I suggest people look at the regulations for arborists is to think of OSHA as the police and ANSI as the coach. If a person violates a law the police will be there to enforce the consequences. There are potentially large consequences. On the other hand, what happens if a person decides not to do what the coach says? The coach doesn't have legal standing to do anything to the player but there can be consequences anyway.
If something does happen the both enforcers can work together to determine consequences.
So the 'Z' is king of Arb in the USA Mahk.
[/ QUOTE ]
The way I suggest people look at the regulations for arborists is to think of OSHA as the police and ANSI as the coach. If a person violates a law the police will be there to enforce the consequences. There are potentially large consequences. On the other hand, what happens if a person decides not to do what the coach says? The coach doesn't have legal standing to do anything to the player but there can be consequences anyway.
If something does happen the both enforcers can work together to determine consequences.
Lazarus, you've got me a little confused so do you have your belay on your srt attached to the front of your saddle as someone is tending your slack on the ground or are you doing a regular srt ascent using mechanical devices? And as far as the clipping and unclipping you're not going to be totally unclipped at any point. You alternate between climb line and lanyard. Don't get me wrong for longer ascents I love SRT.
PUC
I run a standard SRT Frog walker, belayed at the base with trunk wraps (or whatever). This can be used as a self belayed free climb because of the self tailing chest ascender.
My point about changeovers is that, regardless as to whether you are always attached there remains a possibility of a fall. If you don't have to changeover until near the top, thats less exposure and a good thing.
There are many good options for shorter ascents. Glad you like SRT.
I run a standard SRT Frog walker, belayed at the base with trunk wraps (or whatever). This can be used as a self belayed free climb because of the self tailing chest ascender.
My point about changeovers is that, regardless as to whether you are always attached there remains a possibility of a fall. If you don't have to changeover until near the top, thats less exposure and a good thing.
There are many good options for shorter ascents. Glad you like SRT.
- Location
- Chattanooga
I was climbing SRT, trunk tied the other day and was thinking about something coming loose at the anchor, be it, a groundie cutting the rope, whatever.
The major issue I see is that if the 'event' happens while you're ascending, i.e. you are hanging solely from the rope when the anchor/rope fails, you'd fall. It's that simple.
It occurred to me that I could 'trail' a Petzl Shunt on the anchor side of the rope (the Shunt tied to my harness of course). If the rope or anchor failed below the Shunt, the Shunt would arrest the fall. Well unless a rope failure occurred so close to the Shunt that the Shunt couldn't grab.
One caveat I see to this is that you'd pretty much have to have the rope isolated on one limb, or move the Shunt over a limb as you got to it. Another is the climbing side and anchor side of the rope would need to be moderately close to one another.
The major issue I see is that if the 'event' happens while you're ascending, i.e. you are hanging solely from the rope when the anchor/rope fails, you'd fall. It's that simple.
It occurred to me that I could 'trail' a Petzl Shunt on the anchor side of the rope (the Shunt tied to my harness of course). If the rope or anchor failed below the Shunt, the Shunt would arrest the fall. Well unless a rope failure occurred so close to the Shunt that the Shunt couldn't grab.
One caveat I see to this is that you'd pretty much have to have the rope isolated on one limb, or move the Shunt over a limb as you got to it. Another is the climbing side and anchor side of the rope would need to be moderately close to one another.
This is what I do Ron:
If I'm ascending close to the trunk (i.e. close to the belayed leg of my access rope) and need to use a hand/chain saw, I always tie in to the trunk (with lanyard or towed work line) BEFORE drawing on the saw.
If I'm ascending away from the trunk (i.e. out of arms reach of) and need to use a saw, I tie in to my SRT line with lanyard/work line well above where I'm cutting. This will not be under load like the access line, so if my blade touches the access line and it cracks apart (like loaded single lines do when touched by a sharp thing!) I'll be secure. As the back up line isn't loaded, it won't be prone to sudden failure from the sharp edge.
If you are using a proper rated rope (11mm EN 1891 type A true kernmantle is a guarantee of factor 1 fall safety with knots), it won't fail (extremely unlikely) without a sharp edge. The risk is anchor failure, which is why you always try for two branches with the throwline (one shot can run several branches through the tree like a fishing pole). Fortunately, there are normally many smaller weaker branches, or fewer big strong ones. Any doubts, choke the trunk, and run a belayed safety line for immediate descent.
All of these are quick, easy and safe to set and use....once you're shown how of course !
If I'm ascending close to the trunk (i.e. close to the belayed leg of my access rope) and need to use a hand/chain saw, I always tie in to the trunk (with lanyard or towed work line) BEFORE drawing on the saw.
If I'm ascending away from the trunk (i.e. out of arms reach of) and need to use a saw, I tie in to my SRT line with lanyard/work line well above where I'm cutting. This will not be under load like the access line, so if my blade touches the access line and it cracks apart (like loaded single lines do when touched by a sharp thing!) I'll be secure. As the back up line isn't loaded, it won't be prone to sudden failure from the sharp edge.
If you are using a proper rated rope (11mm EN 1891 type A true kernmantle is a guarantee of factor 1 fall safety with knots), it won't fail (extremely unlikely) without a sharp edge. The risk is anchor failure, which is why you always try for two branches with the throwline (one shot can run several branches through the tree like a fishing pole). Fortunately, there are normally many smaller weaker branches, or fewer big strong ones. Any doubts, choke the trunk, and run a belayed safety line for immediate descent.
All of these are quick, easy and safe to set and use....once you're shown how of course !
- Location
- Chattanooga
Lazarus2,
I agree with your comments above; what I was thinking about was in reference to:
"...Just remember the cut through risk of working off a line belayed at the ground - climber or ground crew can inadvertantly cut it. It doesn't discount the method, but special briefing is required, especially for a crew programmed to DdRT systems (i.e. easy to switch into 'no risk to climber while I'm cutting' mode)."
The Shunt on the anchor side of the rope would be one way to protect against that very thing. Of course the best way is what you suggested, "...special briefing is required, especially for a crew programmed to DdRT systems..."
I agree with your comments above; what I was thinking about was in reference to:
"...Just remember the cut through risk of working off a line belayed at the ground - climber or ground crew can inadvertantly cut it. It doesn't discount the method, but special briefing is required, especially for a crew programmed to DdRT systems (i.e. easy to switch into 'no risk to climber while I'm cutting' mode)."
The Shunt on the anchor side of the rope would be one way to protect against that very thing. Of course the best way is what you suggested, "...special briefing is required, especially for a crew programmed to DdRT systems..."
Hi Ron
Good thinking with the shunt, but doesn't work out in practicability.
If worried about unreliable groundies, secure the belay leg of the SRT line at about 8ft up (use a short section of ladder).
This way, its simple to pop up the short ladder to retrieve a climber in an emergency, but safe from ground hazards.
Cheers
P.
Good thinking with the shunt, but doesn't work out in practicability.
If worried about unreliable groundies, secure the belay leg of the SRT line at about 8ft up (use a short section of ladder).
This way, its simple to pop up the short ladder to retrieve a climber in an emergency, but safe from ground hazards.
Cheers
P.
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