SRT Question

Ground anchoring gives the climber so many advantages besides the obvious ground-based rescue potential. One is that the climber can distribute load over several branches. It is not backup, it is distributing load over branches that individually would not be safe. Good visual TIP assessment, erring on the side of stronger than weaker and a load test before climbing go a long way towards keeping it safe.
-AJ
 
I agree with Shawn as well, your arse is yours, it is your responsibility. The day in question that I goofed pretty bad, I showed up on a job late in the afternoon and I had 12 trees to "sucker up" (as our sales guy puts it). I was somewhat rushed, and it was totally my fault that I let this mindset effect my judgement.

Moss, really have a great respect for you and I think you illustrated one of my favorite books to come out in the past decade. Follow your posts on this site and on ENTS. But, on the day in question, as on all days, I did do an on rope test, bounced around quite a bit. Didn't matter, branch still broke when I was about 20' off the ground. Really probably 15' or so. It was in the winter and I thought the branch that broke was green, but it ended up being dead. The rope caught at about 5', I think, and stretched till I was basically on the ground. It felt like a lead fall while rock climbing. Only my pride was hurt, but it really p-d me off and I don't like using that tie off at work, usually. The branch that broke also came down and came pretty close to hitting me. Yes, it was my fault, but at the same time, I learned a lot from this. There are countless things that can go wrong when using this type tie off, that's all I'm saying. I prefer to tie a running bowline (with a back-up knot) and cinch it up to the limb I am tied to. I feel that this removes a lot of the variables and for me at least, once I reach my point of tie in, I can advance it pretty easily.

Basically, know, as well as you can, that your primary TIP is good and make sure that there is nothing really questionable on the fall side as well. Pretty much what Moss said.
 
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...But, on the day in question, as on all days, I did do an on rope test, bounced around quite a bit. Didn't matter, branch still broke when I was about 20' off the ground. Really probably 15' or so. It was in the winter and I thought the branch that broke was green, but it ended up being dead. The rope caught at about 5', I think, and stretched till I was basically on the ground. It felt like a lead fall while rock climbing.

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That sux.

Load test is just one part of the equation but is clearly no guarantee. What you described is the visual assessment part, binoculars are a big help so you can check if there are buds or not on winter hardwood branches. If I can't see and assess everything the rope is over I'm not happy about climbing on it. Being conservative helps a lot on high SRT settings, no reason not to be conservative.
-AJ
 
You are right, Moss. I know, by experience, how right you are, now. My goal here is to make sure that guys who are new to this are well informed. There are a lot of variables. They need to be very sure. For me, it is easier to be very sure when my rope is cinched up to the limb that I have isolated. There is no question left. It is as fool proof as I can make it.
 
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...My goal here is to make sure that guys who are new to this are well informed. There are a lot of variables. They need to be very sure. For me, it is easier to be very sure when my rope is cinched up to the limb that I have isolated. There is no question left. It is as fool proof as I can make it.

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Definitely. Good to get the word out that a shock load is a very bad scene something fails on a ground anchor setup.

I do cinched TIPs if they're reasonable to get, but then again I'm a rec climber, I'm not expecting ground based rescue when I'm out in the woods.

I like to do the work to get partial isolation for ground anchor situations, that way I get the benefit of multiple limbs and keep the sketchy stuff out that can cause the sudden drops. I have been laughed at while doing this :-) but I don't care.

Don't ya love it when someone tells you that the TIP looks fine to them when they're not going up first? It's so easy to say.
-AJ
 
Don't ya love it when someone tells you that the TIP looks fine to them when they're not going up first? It's so easy to say.
-AJ

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Sure do. Usually give them the, shut the f up look. I'm very surprised at what some guys think is ok. Lateral small dia. stuff. Freaks me out and I usually say something. I don't want to watch anyone fall, even if it makes me look like a pansy. Dnt really care. Takes some balls to look like a pansy, which is somewhat ironic.
 
I like the running bowline technique when I can or I tie the rope to the base of a different tree. I do this when I can because one time I almost cut my rope with a chainsaw.
 
Hi Shawn,

No offence taken, I think the more we explore these issues the better for everyone.

When I say I am concerned it is more at the use of the system by novice climbers who do not necessarily have the skill or knowledge to use it properly. SRT is really an advanced technique as although it is easy to do (thats why we use it) it requires skill and knowledge to set up properly.If properly configured I agree it is as safe as say, footlocking. SRT systems can tend to be a little more complicated than other methods requiring more thought to go into how you would descend in an emergency, how you load the TIP, what type of rope you are using, types of ascenders.

The safest method of tree access is the old school bodythrust. This allows you to inspect branch unions, decay, hollows on the way up and allows for immediate retreat/descent in the event of a problem (bees,wasps,injury). I don't access trees this way anymore as it kills the old body but it sure is nice to be able to bomb out of the canopy when a problem arises.

Sorry if this seems a bit jumbled I am on the go at the moment.
 
During my climbing career, which started in the early 70s, I had two TIPS break. Both were because of my poor choices and understanding of tree strength. Both were when climbing DdRT. Both resulted in bruises not injuries. Along the way I started SRT. Also, I learned more about trees and what to consider when choosing a TIP.

SRT is considered advanced now because it is still relatively new to tree work. The 'tribal knowledge' associated with SRT is still developing. And, it is developing very fast thanks to Internet communication. The basic protocols haven't had years to be sorted out. The sorting is happening quickly though!
 
I sometimes forget too that most of the guys on here are looking at SRT as an access method only. For myself and some of my buddies here, as well as Tom and others on the buzz, it is not only access, but how we work the tree. I have been climbing only SRT for almost 6 months now on a rope wrench, and have not gone back to doubled rope once. So I guess Im looking at all these SRT discussions a bit differently than some of y'all are.

When I set up my line, Im fully planning on accessing and working the entire tree with that single rope. Thats why its difficult for me to understand where alot of the fears and stigmas about SRT are coming from, because I climb with it every time and I dont see them. Since I have switched to SRT, I have never felt safer or more confident in my equipment, my setups, and my understanding and "feel" for the structure of the tree and the effects I am having on it. SRT as a climbing system and not just access has revolutionized the way I look at a climb, and has made me a better climber, Im sure of that.

If someone has questions about SRT, the best thing I can say is, find a local who knows it and uses it, and see it in action for yourself. I wish there were more of us around the country using it, who could demo it for those out there who are curious, but we are in the minority right now. I think a collaboration between some of us "Singlers" to produce an in depth vid to post up would help alot of guys on here, maybe thats something that could be in the works soon, I dont know. I personally HATED SRT about 2 years ago, and swore I would never use it, just couldnt make any of the systems work for me. An d now I swear by it! My point is that there are endless ways to access and work a tree, and we have all seen some weird ones. But please please please give a method a fair shake before writing it off, because you just never know what you might be missing.
 
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.... broke when I was about 20' off the ground. Really probably 15' or so. It was in the winter and I thought the branch that broke was green, but it ended up being dead. The rope caught at about 5', I think, and stretched till I was basically on the ground.....

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It should not be overlooked that the dramatic, short drop tests that produced loads high enough to cause failure were with static rope and toothed ascenders. Moving through a tree on a system that cannot withstand a 20" drop is foolhardy.
Tom mentioned this earlier and the above quote illustrates just how much stretch is purposely designed into our climbing lines. A base-tied single (arborist) rope will have much more stretch in a fall than the same line doubled.
Impact injury from an obstacle or ground is much more likely than system failure. When trying to understand the limitations and attributes of a system it does no good if your basing judgments on things that do not apply.

Dave
 
It seems like a small issue but I think an important one to point out. In a trunk tied SRT system, your TIP is the TRUNK. That is where you are tied into. Everything else is a redirect.

It seems small but I think it comes to the root of the difference in the mindset that has to change in order to go from SRT to DRT. In a sense it is a lot more simple. You actually TIE INTO YOUR TIE IN POINT. In Ddrt it is more compolicated because you kind of tie into yourself creating a loop and moving parts and multiple knots. Mechanical advantage is involved as is friction and a number of other variables.

I hear people talk about the back leg of their SRT line as if it were less important or different than the front leg. In SRT it is all one single line and you must visually inspect and analyze everything in between your TIP and you.


Southsoundstrees explanation of the physics of a trunk tied SRT system is correct that it can double the load on the "redirect" however it is not the force that is important to analyze, it is the direction of the force. With SRT you can use this to your advantage much like Moss says. Think compression wood and how a little fishing pole can real in an enormous fish.

Much of my understanding of SRT climbing comes from my understanding of rigging via "the art and science of practical rigging" and the excellent carreer changing seminars given by Todd Kramer and others on load distribution in rigging.

As for SRT ascent,
My personal feeling is that climbing attached to cammed ascenders of any kind that do not allow for immediate descent is ill advised. Body thrusting is safer. Footlocking is safer because anyone who can footlock up should be able to footlock down. I use cammed ascenders in my system but I do not attach myself to them or in the case of the pantin can kick myself out of them immediatly.
 
Wow. What a great debate going on here. I've got several things to add. But first of all, the forces generated on ascent. A few years back, we hooked a rigged a DdRT Footlock ascent for Frank Chipps, who at the time had the world record for the footlock. Frank generated close to 1000 ponds footlocking. But as you can imagine, he was really cruising.

Secondly, Unless your rope is over several branches in very close prosimity to each other both horizontally and vertically, most of the force is on the uppermost branch. Treebing mentions the Art and Science of Practical Rigging video series. It has an excellent discussion on rope angles and forces at anchors and redirects. But more importantly it helps you to understand the law of thermodynamics that energy is neither created or destroyed, only converted somewhere. So those 400 lbs for a 200 pound load/climber are all in there somewhere. In a fall, greater forces are experienced due to shock loading, so distance from the highest branch/TIP to the next "backup" becomes an interesting concept in the equation.

Third, If you run a cinching knot up to the TIP you will load the branch with your weight, period. Also, if that cinching knot encompasses several branches, they will equally share the load, since the load is effectively in the loop created when you tie the cinching knot. That means that if you have 4 branches, even if 1 or more are some distance away from each other, they are sharing the load which you'll recall is a single load, the climbers weight.

Fourth, There have been many more injuries and fatalities from falls where a TIP has broken than there have been scenarios where a climber needed a ground assisted rescue. True, it is one of the benefits to tying off at the ground, but I for one, believe that it is a misconception that the ground assisted lowering of an injured climber makes that version of SRT better than cinching at the TIP.

Fifth, There is not yet a "best" way to do this, because each tree, each job, and each climber is different. Whichever method you feel works for you in a way that makes you more comfortable, puts you at the top of the tree in a manner that leaves you plenty of energy to work safely, and allows you access to the parts of the tree you need to be in, is the "best." But for sure, we need to make an effort to understand correctly the systems we are using, potential consequences, and benefits of each.

I climb a lot of conifers that are well over 150 feet tall. I have gotten pretty good with the bigshot and have fairly good success getting TIP over 100 feet. This still leaves me with a third of the tree to ascend. So I typically will either tie with a ground anchor and leave that line in as an access line, and use a secondary canopy line to work the upper canopy, tie back into the access line and descend. Or if the situation warrants, I'll send a running bowline up to the TIP mostly for convenience. I will usually leave a very long tail so that upon reaching a good place to rest, I can switch to a DdRt system very easily because the working end of the rope is at eye level rather than tied off at the base of the tree, which is 90 feet below me. Try it, and I bet you like it!

At this point in time there are so many options to creatively build SRT systems that work for each of us. Figure out what works for you. Understand when not to use a technique or type of gear, and climb safe.

And one more thing. Practice switching from your SRT ascending system to a descending system while "on rope." This endeavor will likely make you rethink the system you are using.
 
Zeb...you make some good points.

When I started blending SRT into my climbing years ago I would always look at ways of reducing or eliminating 'dead ends' in the process. If there were a limitation I would try to reconfigure to make it better. From the first instant that I saw the Unicender, now, about 7 years ago I think, I knew that a new millenium had just started for rope climbing! The Uni, and now the Rope Wrench, solve so many shortcomings.

Every day more time is being spent on SRT in trees. At some time our tribal knowledge of SRT in trees will equal, then surpass, DdRT. On that day, I predict our tribe will look over and say...what? why? By then, all of the nuances and details will be structured so that the thinking will be changed.

When will that happen? I truly believe it will be during my climbing career! That career has been lengthened because of SRT as well as working with considerations for proper ergonomics. Hearing how brand new climbers are starting where I was, in my early thirties, and moving ahead will shorten the time for our tribal knowledge to shift.
 
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In a trunk tied SRT system, your TIP is the TRUNK. That is where you are tied into. Everything else is a redirect.

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Key point from Kevin worth highlighting.
-AJ
 
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Fourth, There have been many more injuries and fatalities from falls where a TIP has broken than there have been scenarios where a climber needed a ground assisted rescue. True, it is one of the benefits to tying off at the ground, but I for one, believe that it is a misconception that the ground assisted lowering of an injured climber makes that version of SRT better than cinching at the TIP.



I feel that if you are to ascend via one way ascenders that require changeover to descend thanyou absolutely need a ground belay.

I find that in some of the redirected systems i string through the tree, I have so much dynamic bounce I almost dont have to tend slack. I will simply drop down and all the limbs and redirects and stretch in the rope lowers me down to the next branch. When I want to return I jump and it springs me up.

The flex of the tree is an important thing to remember when calculating shock loads. I almost always employ at least three redirects.

O suggest we call them initial redirect and top reidirct and ultimate redirect.

If you have one redirect they would be all three in one. that is not an ideal scenario for me and I try to avoid it. In NATCC master there was a climb that employed a trunk tie and only one redirect. That redirect was a horizontal lead and it looked very scary and there was a lot of force generated on it. That it where I would have cinched the branch as TIP instead of the trunk. if I could not have fishing poled that redirect. Some time the Top redirect is the last sometimes its the first and sometimes its the last. Another important redirect would be the peak force redi. That could be the first or the last.
 
maybe not absolutely, but you are very exposed in that situation. try disconecting from a Texas system in a state of panic. If you are incapacitated by a limb or other event while ascending then it is very difficult to rescue you as well. It is the only situation that I think a ground belay is truly advisable. if you are in descent mode than you can self rescue easily and you can be rescued easily.
 
I still think the odds of someone overloading an initial TIP exceed the risks of becoming incapacitated on the ascent.

I hesitate to make a blanket rule for how to use SRT, which is why I am belaboring the point here. Sometimes its better with a ground anchor, and sometimes not.

Tree climbers have been entering trees statically for decades via footlocking with some incidents involving being incapacitated on line with no way to descend. But many more have occurred due to other factors that have nothing to do with being lowered from the ground.

Is it a benefit to the ground anchor? Yes. Does that make it better?
 
I am with you completely on the TIP being multiple stems and redirects. I have used it many times as well. Especially in trees that have some suspect limbs high in the canopy. Using the ground anchor and multiple redirects you can in effect tie into the whole canopy, which utilizes the trees natural dampening to support you during the climb.

And its really fun.
 
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