Smart Winch/GRCS comparison

My winch is worn out, no question about it and the reason is because the winch bollard CAN take a hell of a hammering and so tends to. I'm lucky enough to have a bunch of lowering devices but if I was running just my initial GRCS it'd be a question of something new now.
If there is no issue then why does the GRCS come with the aluminium bollard? If it is not for wear issues it certainly is for something.
The SW is sleek, strong and smart and although I didnt want to face one against the other I couldnt really help it.
My working situation is fairly intense, 2km trek, 300m scramble up incline to the site today, we have enough to carry and the functionality of the SW combined with its lightweight means a lot to my crew. I realise that not everyone works like this, the video was made for Japanese tree workers, I just thought it may be of interest, didn't mean it to turn into a conversation about $ !!
 
I love the aluminum bollard. It is so simple and consistent. I only use the winch for lifting which is rare. I love how they are easily interchangeable and are exactly the right tool for the job. I don't like catching tops on the winch. I just don't think it's as smooth.
 
I love the aluminium bollard too, I'll send you a pic of my euro version, nothing comes close for fast dynamic rigging. Have to remember quarter turns when dialling in friction, SW has 4 nubs, so does my GRCS bollard, the new ones have only 2.
 
The reason for the bollard is that the winch is not supposed to handle more than 2000#, and it can be damaged from overloading. That said, I hardly ever use the bollard. We have been rigging 99% with the winch with no issues for years.

Tom
 
I'll say this once and then drop it. I'm sure that those who choose to leave the bollard on a shelf in the workshop from the moment they buy the GRCS are missing the chance to learn profound lessons when rigging. Gravity, levarage, balance points, rope stretch, hinge control and resultant forces surround the work and I get the impression that those who choose the winch over a bollard either can't see natural forces or dont know how to manipulate them. Rigging with zero pretension over the arm pull of a ground rigger is, for me, the most satisfying type of rigging. Fluid, connected and fast moving. Reg and his Stein stuff got it right on many levels, simple and strong with just enough power to pretension. If you really need to winch and you know how to use a bollard, the SW hits the spot.
 
SoftBankHawks said:
Gravity, levarage, balance points, rope stretch, hinge control and resultant forces surround the work and I get the impression that those who choose the winch over a bollard either can't see natural forces or dont know how to manipulate them.
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These are all the things that you can manipulate with the winch. Your post implies that those of us that prefer the winch never rigged without one. I personally get a kick out of all types of rigging, but I find that the winch helps us manipulate forces and take advantage of all sorts of things we could not before. The smart winch looks like a great tool!

Tom
 
SoftBankHawks said:
Gravity, levarage, balance points, rope stretch, hinge control and resultant forces surround the work and I get the impression that those who choose the winch over a bollard either can't see natural forces or dont know how to manipulate them. Rigging with zero pretension over the arm pull of a ground rigger is, for me, the most satisfying type of rigging.
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I believe what you are describing are the foundations of good advanced rigging.

Pretension, removing rope stretch and even higher levels of rope pull quite a bit over and above what arm pull is capable of are more advanced forms of rigging.

Got my first Hobbs device in 1990.

It was an evolution in rigging I'll never forget.

The basic Hobbs of that era as of yet is only very slightly if at all surpassed by the newer devices. The operator and the climber's ability are orders of magnitude more important.
 
tomthetreeman said:
These are all the things that you can manipulate with the winch. Your post implies that those of us that prefer the winch never rigged without one. I personally get a kick out of all types of rigging, but I find that the winch helps us manipulate forces and take advantage of all sorts of things we could not before. The smart winch looks like a great tool!

Tom
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Not at all Tom, how could I possibly know what other people do. I meant to say that rigging with a bollard is very different to having a winching bollard at hand, it means completely different strategies, as I'm sure most people understand. Most everyone said they use the winch-bollard 99% of the time and this will surely lead to winching, or as you said, manipulation.
Going on site with 2 different rigging potentials at hand, 2 concepts that can run in tandem, lends a great palette of technique.
 
Gotcha. I meant (and I think others did as well) that we use the winch the majority of the time when the GRCS is employed. The portawrap is used mostly for us, as the majority of our work is pruning and lighter rigging.

Tom
 
TreeCo said:
I believe what you are describing are the foundations of good advanced rigging.

Pretension, removing rope stretch and even higher levels of rope pull quite a bit over and above what arm pull is capable of are more advanced forms of rigging.
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I don't see how pre-stretching a rope is an advanced rigging technique. The GRCS is sometimes called 'the poor mans crane' and like with crane work we can remove much uncertainty through minamising internal wood tensions. Tip tieing and lifting or balance point tieing, pretension and swinging are much easier to do than post stretch cutting works. I see the latter as much more advanced. Like you said, the tool doesn't make the rigger.
 
tomthetreeman said:
The reason for the bollard is that the winch is not supposed to handle more than 2000#, and it can be damaged from overloading. That said, I hardly ever use the bollard. We have been rigging 99% with the winch with no issues for years.

Tom
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I know! How many times have we rigged 2000# pieces? Not all too many.
 
The SW is cool. I just think the points you made about the GRCS aren't as big of an issue as you seem to make them. Rigging with a winch is so much easier on the rigger. Less pieces, less cuts is time saved. I rigged for years with my dad, no pulleys and just a port a wrap. I learned a lot from that. That a GRCS has so many advantages. It's more my style.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
Wait...don't forget dynamic loads.

A 2k# static load would be hard to imagine.
A 2k# slam dunk load sure isn't hard to imagine.
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Correct, you can generate 2K with much less. I wasn't implying that we rig 2K pieces into the winch, that's just silly LOL. Maybe average 2-300#, max 1200#, depending on the situation. I've winched up storm damaged tree parts, them lowered them a bit heavier than 2K, but with other lines employed.

Tom
 
In my mind advanced rigging is being able to control and/or eliminate extreme forces and I believe a GRCS gives you the best tool to do so.

When you say Gravity, levarage, balance points, rope stretch, hinge control and resultant forces surround the work and I get the impression that those who choose the winch over a bollard either can't see natural forces or dont know how to manipulate them.

I think that is a very bold statement and feel like you need to have a good understanding of gravity and leverage and balance points and rope stretch and hinge control and forces in order to be a safe and efficient rigger and whatever tool allows my crew/coworkers to use those things to their advantage is the right tool for the job. I'm not saying that the SW can't do that but I believe a GRCS does that much easier and gives everyone the best tool for the job.

Lastly, I don't see how using a winch or a bollard has anything to do with seeing natural forces or knowing how to manipulate them, understanding those things are needed for whatever device you are using.

Not trying to get in a pissing match but feel like most of us were just telling you our views on a new rigging device and just because we don't completely agree with you doesn't make either one of us right or wrong, we are all entitled to our own opinions and our own preferred tools for getting the job done safely.
 
Back to the point in contention, the photo shows last weeks douglas fir removal, we winched and drifted the branches and then negative rigged the trunk. I'm not sure that the harken winch is really designed for this kind of tree work. This situation was black and white, 1 day static rigging and 1 day dynamic, easy enough to switch bollards. I guess this was my point, in the video I mean, treework can bring a host of scenarios in a short amount of time, winching and dynamic, SWL' can be pushed to their limits very easily, this is what I did repeatedly with my GRCS winch bollard. I like the GRCS, said so on the video, it's since using the SW that I can see folly in its use. By all means dont listen to me, it doesn't bother me at all, I'm not offended by differences of opinion . We all have a different body of experience and tool knowledge and act accordingly to our situations.
 

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Two years ago I was fortunate to come across a used Hobbs (H2), prior to which a porty was used for rigging. Have grown to appreciate what that Hobbs can and does do. I've only seen a GRCS used in the flesh, so to speak, once, and was underwhelmed with the time spent switching out the winch / bollard / winch. The aura (and marketing) of the GRCS certainly outshines the H2. I see it as being an irresistable lure to anyone with lotsa cash on hand; I was sorely tempted to spring for one for years, but somehow always managed to get by without. That Smart Winch seems to combine the best attributes of both a GRCS and a Hobbs into one unit.
 
Don't know if you have seen the phenomenal boost in performance and usefulness to the Hobbs by the addition of the X Wheel by David Driver. It turns the Hobbs into a quick lifting device as well as strong.

You can see the X Wheel working in some of his video footage, one vid may have been primarily about the Wheels use.

(Think there are only a handfull of them left for sale.)
 
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