safety question about working off an srt system

ward

ward

Participating member
Location
Unincorporated Clackamas, OR
I have always thought that SRT should be a method of ascent into the canopy and not, at least in most circumstances, an acceptable method for simultaneously working the tree. Recently, in Oregon a climber was thinning a Doug fir off of an SRT system and cut his line and fell 50 ft, badly injuring himself. Can we say, definitively, that in all but the most exceptional circumstances, SRT is not to be used as a working rope system?
 

Attachments

  • 263579-1295771940181.webp
    263579-1295771940181.webp
    41.4 KB · Views: 165
Why not?

If the climber had been climbing on a DdRT and cut one leg of the rope they would have fallen too, right?

SRT has been my exclusive system for many years. For somewhere around 15, maybe close to 20, I've used SRT for access and some working.

Why didn't the climber have a second attachment? For many years I've used a lanyard when cutting with a handsaw as well as a chainsaw.

I'll say, definitively too, that SRT is the future of tree climbing. Maybe not 100% of the climbers but more and more.
 
[ QUOTE ]

I'll say, definitively too, that SRT is the future of tree climbing. Maybe not 100% of the climbers but more and more.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree!!
 
Was his line ground anchored? Did he cut the part of the line going from the TIP to the ground?

DdRT systems can be cut too, I'm just asking the above questions because I'm guessing you are concerned with having a part of your line in the canopy that is supporting your life, but not "trailing" you the way a cinched SRT line or DdRT line would, thus being more susceptible to being accidentally cut?
 
Thanks, chaps, for your quick responses. In response to the question about how the accident happened, I'm going on hearsay at the moment, but it seems that he was pruning out a fir (my guess is he had his 20 in one hand and probably no flipline--and, hey, I've been there, too!) and cut the opposing strand of his SRT system. So, if that is the case, it raises the question of the safety of cutting off deadwood, thinning, etc. when you are working off a single rope technique. I can think of 3 reasons why not (generally speaking) to use SRT as a system to work a tree out (and I'm not saying it shouldn't be used as an ascent system):

1. More prone to cutting the rope than in Ddrt. While it is true that Ddrt can just as easily be cut, it is less likely to when all of the anchorage is above the work.

2. SRT systems that use an anchor at the base of the tree (a very typical set-up), are more apt to catch branches and get caught up in the work.

3. Hardware on SRT systems is prone to releasing. When you are working off a prusik on a Ddrt, you have a very solid system that will withstand the rigors of pushing through brush. If you are simultaneously working off ascenders, these are apt to open up unless secured--but even then. I've worked off a grigri before and liked it, but would never work off ascenders and SRT, for the obvious reason.



Thoughts?
 

Attachments

  • 263590-1295941584001.webp
    263590-1295941584001.webp
    37.4 KB · Views: 94
Sorry to hear he got injured. Hope for a quick recovery. But lets not throw out the technique. Learn from our mistakes.

If he's cutting any where close to his line or in a situation where he could potentially cut his line he should have 2 points of attachment.

I climb primarily SRT and anytime i get close to my line i throw my lanyard on just in case. Takes all of 10 sec at most.
 
I work off of SRT almost all the time... Except for limb walking. I myself thing is no safer or less dangerous than DRT. The only concern I can see with single rope is that most of the time you are tied off to the base of the tree which could be compromised by a hound saw (still highly unlikely). I believe the safely concern with the Oregon climber, as some one already pointed out is that it sounds like he wasn't tied in twice. I always tie in twice... No matter what. I started climbing on SRT and would have never done any of it different. Safely is the key to ANY climbing system.
 
I can see the concern with your #1 and 2 points but not the third. Some DRT hitches are prone to slipping too if bumping into obstacles in the tree. I ascend, work off, and descend with a petzl I'D. It has anti panic functions built in and is fool proof. I don't work off of the ascention handles if that was what you were saying, there just aiders to get you to your work. I myself have never worked off of a gri-gri, I don't like the fact that it does not have a lock off built in.
 
[ QUOTE ]
1. More prone to cutting the rope than in Ddrt. While it is true that Ddrt can just as easily be cut, it is less likely to when all of the anchorage is above the work.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make sense to me. Cutting either leg of DdRT will result in a fall. Where the TIP/anchor is is irrelevant. Neither is more or less safe than the other from cutting with a saw.

[ QUOTE ]
2. SRT systems that use an anchor at the base of the tree (a very typical set-up), are more apt to catch branches and get caught up in the work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not anymore likely than in a rigging scenario. How often is a climber allowed to snag rigging with limbs before they get their ears boxed? If a climber can't keep track of their surroundings any better then they're not working safe. They need to be reined in. I can't recall ever snagging limbs in my SRT system. Climbing SRT does require more planning and a systems awareness that can't be relaxed like in DdRT. Is this a plus or minus? Neither, just a requirement.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Hardware on SRT systems is prone to releasing. When you are working off a prusik on a Ddrt, you have a very solid system that will withstand the rigors of pushing through brush. If you are simultaneously working off ascenders, these are apt to open up unless secured--but even then. I've worked off a grigri before and liked it, but would never work off ascenders and SRT, for the obvious reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hitches should never be pushed through brush either. Why would a climber put their attachment point in a compromising situation? When I teach climbing this is one of the sacrosanct procedures. Rope attachments never touch anything willfully. If there is a chance of them getting touched use a second attachment. That is the same mantra for SRT or DdRT.

If there is ever a concern that the attachment might release, with either SRT or DdRT, use a stopper/backup below. This is common practice in rec climbing and big wall jugging. It sure seems like it should be more of an SOP for arbo work too.

Climbing SRT requires a new way of thinking. Since there are so many new facets to this style of climbing it requires a raised awareness.

When I was about 12 I started downhill skiing. After many years I got bored because it was too easy and I wasn't physically participating in skiing. Then I discovered telemarking. After that I got my mind and body involved in skiing again. The same thing happened when I crossed paths with Morgan and got my first Unicender. Climbing is more interesting...and soooo much easier too!
 
Tom,

I only have time to address your issues with my first point.

You wrote: "Cutting either leg of DdRT will result in a fall. Where the TIP/anchor is is irrelevant. Neither is more or less safe than the other from cutting with a saw."

Yes, cutting either leg will result in a fall. The security is in the doubled portion above the prusik. Single line techniques (if anchored from the base) have a length of rope around the backside of the tree. This can more easily get cut if you are working down a tree, cutting stubs, etc. I'd like to see how you handle cutting stubs or limbs encroaching into the pathway of the single line. Do you pull the rope aside as you one-handedly cut the stub? Consider that you are in a big Douglas fir and your SRT system threads its way up through the branches and down the other side.

The point is that SRT is a very efficient ascent system and descent system that may be a little too efficient, inviting a moment's carelessness that can result in the unthinkable. Given the structure of large conifers, and the nature of the work in them, these trees are frequently pruned on the ascent and descent off of SRT. It seems obvious that there are greater risks to nick your line if it is hiding behind the tree under tension. Under the DdrT, you can see the line above you that is holding you.

Cheers.
 
if cutting a ground anchored SRT system seems like such an issue, you can easily set up a top anchored system and work SRT same as if you have a ground anchor, but without that pesky doubled line.
 
Waldo,

You may be able to easily set up a top anchored system, but then you have to re-ascend to undo the anchor. That's why the base anchor is used. ;)
 

Attachments

  • 263660-1295939296610.webp
    263660-1295939296610.webp
    26.6 KB · Views: 71
[ QUOTE ]

3. Hardware on SRT systems is prone to releasing. When you are working off a prusik on a Ddrt, you have a very solid system that will withstand the rigors of pushing through brush. If you are simultaneously working off ascenders, these are apt to open up unless secured--but even then. I've worked off a grigri before and liked it, but would never work off ascenders and SRT, for the obvious reason.




[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that hardware isn't safe, but you should check out the hitch reliant SRT systems that treebing, countryboypa, and others climb with and are developing. (see links below). They offer some pretty convincing arguments for the safety and productivity of using SRT systems for work positioning.

Singing Tree Rope Wrench

F8 Revolver

SRT Reaching the Tips
 
[ QUOTE ]
Waldo,

You may be able to easily set up a top anchored system, but then you have to re-ascend to undo the anchor. That's why the base anchor is used. ;)

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you can tie a piece of throwline around your top SRT sinching knot (such as a running bowline) and then use it to retrieve your climbing line from the ground when you are finished.
 
Ward,

No, I don't one hand to cut stubs or one hand to hold my rope aside. In the scenario that you describe there are plenty of other ways to mitigate the risk of cutting the down rope.

Like I said, SRT requires the climber to change the way that they approach work. All differences and neither is safer or more risky than the other.

In your scenario we have to consider this...is SRT more risky because there is one situation that puts the climber more at-risk or is the climber more risky because they don't account for the risks.

I started wearing seatbelts in 1960 because my folks spent their own money to have Montgomery Wards install seatbelts when the factory was only reguired to install lap belts for the driver. No one drives with their hand on the seatbelt ready to buckle up the moment before they get in a wreck. No one drags their safety glasses around and only puts them on occasionally. We make changes in our approaches knowing that there are risks. We mitigate those risks not ignore them.

In addition, using a lanyard or second tie-in has been a suggested SOP for years and is now required in Z133. makes sense to use a second when using a handsaw too. Not required in the Z this rewrite but it will likely be in there next time.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Recently, in Oregon a climber was thinning a Doug fir off of an SRT system and cut his line and fell 50 ft, badly injuring himself. Can we say, definitively, that in all but the most exceptional circumstances, SRT is not to be used as a working rope system?

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the need to respond here because the climber in question is a friend of mine. He is out of the hospital now and is expected to recover despite breaking several bones in his leg, face and neck, and requiring several surgeries. There's nothing pretty about the types of injuries sustained when one falls from height.

Yes, he cut the anchor end of his line while pruning on the way up a doug fir. Yes, this is a hazard which is more or less unique to SRT.

No, I do not for a second agree that it follows that SRT should not be used while working. Bottom line in arboriculture is that there are branches which need to be cut and lines which need to not be cut. Knowing where your lines are is one of the most basic safety precautions we have, and when that fails bad things follow.

That's all there is to it. There is no moral to this story, and the only useful bit to pull from this accident is that you need to be careful and not cut your ropes, whether they are climb lines, access lines or rigging lines (which also have a nasty habit of hiding out on the other side of the trunk.)
 
I for one have to agree that working srt in that situation makes me nervous. Usually when dead wooding pines I ascend srt(so I dont have to isolate,especially if there is tons of deadwood)I work the tree Ddrt. I have done both however. This post reminds me of an unrelated safety meeting at a tree company I worked for when I first started doing tree work. A climber had fallen out of a tree while footlocking with a prussic when he slipped and the prussic didn't grab. At the safety meeting the first thing everyone wanted to do was stop using prussics and no more foot locking into trees.I was on the job and I watched him fall. the prussic was made of stiff rope and he didn't throw his rope so that he had a place to step off in the tree. He fell while trying to swing himself over the limb his rope was around. It wasn't something you would like to see, a guy falling, but I still use prussics all the time. I think the principle is the same here.
 
SRT ONLY: ascend, work, descend ... what is it now ... +13?
This would be a interesting poll! Has there already been one? Even if there has been a poll it would be interesting to see how the trend is shifting.

Anyway, while being relatively new (1+ years) to working SRT only, it's been way more efficient in every way: line-setting, limb-walks, redirects, etc. True, it was a little strange at first. As many have already said, it takes a completely different mind-set. But, after working past that, it actually is easier which = safer, IMO.

DdRT is still useful, though, for double-crotching with the tail of the climb-line. It keeps the skill alive and can be done without <u>any</u> extra gear.

This is probably the real lesson, here ...
ALWAYS lanyard-in ... sometimes twice - thanks to Tom's DEDA lanyard system. It is even a good trick to use one of the lanyards to pull &amp; hold the lifeline out of the work area = no one handing.

Prayers for full recovery.
 
I'll have to back up Jack on this point, but first wish our climber in Oregon a full and speedy recovery.

The lesson is to tie in twice. I believe that practice came at the same time I strapped on a saw and stepped off the ground.

1.
Operator's saw's are the cause of cut ropes, not climbing systems. We all hopefully do a little conscious inventory of where our ropes are before we cut.
Its a matter of being aware of your universe.

&gt;2. SRT systems that use an anchor at the base of the tree (a very typical set-up), are more apt to catch branches and get caught up in the work.

There's the option to anchor to other suitable stationary objects, too.


&gt;3. Hardware on SRT systems is prone to releasing.

My hardware's and prussik's performance does not change because one end of my rope is attached to my harness or down on the ground.

I do not have to initially isolate my pair of lines, therefore I might try some different routes.

4. Could we add another point, that DdRT has more opportunity to get your tail yanked around, especially in high points in the work? This is due to the nature of the system that there's TWICE the amount of tail one has to keep track of?

NO. Although its inevitable, its bad practice, [again] no matter what climbing system, to get brush in your tail.

I have experienced 23 blisters on my hands from a single prussic-related incident similar to the one Matt described. Didn't rattle my belief in the system, technique, or climbing. It did, however, cause me to re-evaluate that application: the combination of friction and climbing ropes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom