Safety Belt or Saddle?

JoeLogger

JoeLogger

Location
PA, USA
After enjoying the this site for several months, I finally decided to register and post a question.

I am not an arborist or rec climber -- I am a tree farmer/logger. I do low impact harvesting on my property. I occasionally have a need to climb to set pull lines in a tree to be felled. Most times this is a straight 30-50 foot ascent to set a line and come back down.

I climb with spurs, safety belt (not a saddle), flip line, and a safety line. The safety belt is fairly new and meets OSHA 1926 and ANSI 359.1/A10.14. It is just a wide safety belt with 2 D rings.

My question is regarding the safety of using a simple safety belt. Would a traditional climbing saddle be more safe or more comfortable for this type of work?

While I have never experienced any problems using the existing setup, forums like TreeBuzz have opened my eyes to a number of safety issues, equipment, and techniques. So I'm hoping you folks have some advice for me.

Thanks in advance.

Joe
 
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Joe;
If you are just setting lines it would be quicker and safer to use a throw line.
If you want to climb trees get a saddle.

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Point taken.

I do use a throw line whenever possible, but in a forest situation, it seems like there are times a throw line just isn't possible. Or maybe I just need to study more and find alternative throw line techniques.

Thanks again,

Joe
 
Welcome to the Treebuzz Cafe! Having people from many backgrounds makes this what it is, a great place to gatther. I'm sure that you'll have some interesting things to share.

It sounds like the belt is just that, it goes around your waist only, no butt or leg support???

This is better than nothing but there is the possibility of the belt becoming a Sui-Slide Saddle. If you fell, the belt could slip up to your arm pits leaving you hang. Or, worse, if you go head first you could fall out completely.

If you need a saddle I'll bet sawdust to sawlogs that more than one Treebuzzer has a decent saddle that they'd sell you.
 
Joe. How long have you been climbing trees this way? How many have you climbed? Sounds like its working just fine to me. look at linemens belts. All they are doing is climbing a pole, and they use the same system you described. Ever see speed climbers? http://www.lumberjackshows.com/ironjack/images/bartow.jpg

Look at their rig. Just what you described. If you want to spend a little dough, spend it on training. Go take a tree climbing course, lots of colleges and a few private companies offer them. Get a book, or a video, and get enough training that you can decide for yourself wether or not you need a different saddle.

Make no mistake about it, this website is by techie gear-heads for techie gear heads. a lot of these guys are just looking for any excuse to go buy another piece of equipment. thats fine, too. just don't confuse equipment with safety, because the two are very different.
 
I strongly disagree with speelyei. Safety is the focus of this site, and also the focus of ANSI and OSHA. Most of the regulations are because somebody was killed or injured using practices now frowned upon.

As so far as the training. Great spend your money on it, but what do you think you'll be taught at school? Will it be "Speed Climbing" or climbing safely using acceptable standards.

I learned to climb from some Jack Leg tree guy. I then started going to school and getting as much training as I could. I can look back and understand why #1 I was slow as mud, #2 luck to still be alive, and #3 luck to not have destroyed a ton of property. Climbing correctly with the rite gear gets you higher, safely, in a better rigging location, and speeds up the process.

I suspect, the first time you make a bad cut and have a tear of bark from not making a good #2 cut and that large limb pulls on your lone flip line, then your belt slips off your hips, youll wish you had the rite stuff.

No disrespect to the above post but I have been on both sides of the fence and like the safe side better. Also I still consider myself a rookie so I am still in a learning curve but the point remains. ( out of 10 recommend climbing saddle!!!!!!!! /forum/images/graemlins/fight.gif /forum/images/graemlins/fight.gif
 
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...look at linemens belts. All they are doing is climbing a pole, and they use the same system you described. Ever see speed climbers? http://www.lumberjackshows.com/ironjack/images/bartow.jpg

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The difference is that they're pole climbers,different workplace, different set of rules. ANSI Z133 is the game book arborists follow.

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If you want to spend a little dough, spend it on training. Go take a tree climbing course, lots of colleges and a few private companies offer them. Get a book, or a video, and get enough training that you can decide for yourself wether or not you need a different saddle.

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I don't think that anyone would argue a bit with this advice. Meeting up with other arbos will allow a new climber to get different insights. Plus, most climbers will let another climber take a saddle for a test drive.

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Make no mistake about it, this website is by techie gear-heads for techie gear heads.

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I'm in 50% agreement with the "by" part, Mark will speak for himself, but I disagree with the "for" part of your statement. This is a place for anyone, traditional or progressive or any combination, to take part. The discussions that go on here tend to be a bit more technical and gear oriented than the other arbo forums but that's not be design. The users set the tone for the most part.

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a lot of these guys are just looking for any excuse to go buy another piece of equipment.

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That's a good definition of a gear head. Since when is being a gear head a bad thing. Those of us who buy, use or make gear will always share our insights, for free, with anyone interested. If I ever, and this isn't likely to happen, take up golf, I'll be asking my friends that gold what to buy and how to train.

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...just don't confuse equipment with safety, because the two are very different.

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Partially correct, but our equipment must meet Z133 standards. A body belt doesn't fit the standard. The saddle needs to have a lower portion for support too.

There are sevearal people, me included, who started climbing trees with some sort of body belt. That worked fine if you could climb with your lanyard all of the time. but when you attach a climbing line to an overhead support the body belt starts to be pulled up. This isn't safe or comfortable either.

If I didn't take the time to share my opnions on this issue I feel that it would be irresponsible.

Training and gear go hand in hand.
 
Thanks for all of the comments. The latter spirited part of the thread really did open my eyes.

I now see the merits of a saddle and realize it offers more control in emergency situations. Thankfully, I've been lucky so far.

Tom, thanks for the tip about buying a used saddle from a forum member, but I'm not wild about used PPE and climbing equipment. I'll just call Sherrills.

For those suggesting education, that's been the toughest part. I have never found anything locally. But this fall, there is 5 day course close by and hope to attend. For me, books and websites are often as confusing as they are helpful because there are so many choices to make. That's why I've used spurs and a safety belt -- not ideal perhaps, but simple and understandable. But research has also led to the question posted here, so progress is at hand.

I genuinely like to climb. And although I have thus far chosen the easiest way to get into the tree, I think once I learn some basic climbing techniques, I will enjoy climbing with or without spurs.

Thanks again to ALL!
 
Someone pointed out a long time ago that we use and buy used things that are much more complicated and life threatening. Cars and airplanes are probably the most notable. Buying a new saddle certainly can't be argued about. Saddles have a very long life in the hands of a good climber. I've got one saddle and four backups that are all in good to great condition.

There have been saddle sales on the forums before. In most f them the buyer has been given return options if the saddle doesn't work out. Shipping costs excluded. This keeps the saddle in circulation. If a saddle is returned to a dealer I don't think that they are likely to be used again. I can understand the liability issue for the vendor. but it seems like such a waste of resources.

It's great to hear that you found a class nearby. You might consider holding off on purchasing a saddle, if you can, until after the class.
 
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...You might consider holding off on purchasing a saddle, if you can, until after the class.

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Sounds like prudent advice Tom. And maybe I'll rethink the idea of a used saddle, too.

In the meantime, what do think about using a Spanish Bowline made out of 5/8" Stable Braid to add some leg loops to my safety belt?
 
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I have never found anything locally

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Joe, I'm not sure what part of PA you're in, but they have a Western Climbing Comp and an Eastern every Spring. They also have a great winter Symposium in Lancaster, PA every Feb. And Colombus Ohio (TCI Expo) in Nov. isn't that far from you I'm sure.
 
In the meantime, what do think about using a Spanish Bowline made out of 5/8" Stable Braid to add some leg loops to my safety belt?

As another option, you could make up a webbing harness and use that under your belt, Figure out a way to clip both harnesses together so that they work together will be a challenge.

By tying a few more loops and adding some padding, a bowline on a bight could work. Not very comfy though...

Here is one set of directions, google will lead you to more:

http://www.altrec.com/published/climb/skills/makingyourownharness/
 

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By all means buy a new saddle if thats what you want to do. My point was that like an AED or a set of SCUBA gear, the equipment does NO GOOD without training and education. For those who read Joe Loggers post, he said he climbs 40-50 feet with a flipline, and ties on a pull rope. He didn't say he's doing any rigging, cutting to the branch collar, doing full removals, or anything of the sort. Up and Down. Now, using the flipline in the manner he described, with his new saddle, he will have one or two more "D" rings hanging loose off his leg straps, where an arborist would attach his climb line. Why? What is the point in that?

Tom, as always, your responses are positive, well thought out, and interesting.
My aversion to gear heads comes from years of rock climbing. There are a lot of people who bring a ton of equipment to a top-roping area, talk a big game, and avoid difficult climbs altogether.
 
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For those who read Joe Loggers post, he said he climbs 40-50 feet with a flipline, and ties on a pull rope. He didn't say he's doing any rigging, cutting to the branch collar, doing full removals, or anything of the sort. Up and Down.

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I appreciate you candor. You hit the nail on the head. The only tools I carry are small pruners and/or handsaw to cut small obstacle branches. My dad was a utility lineman and climbed thousands of poles with similar equipment. I saw my needs as being very similar. On the other hand, I can see the added security of leg straps.

The reason I am interested in the class and purchasing a saddle is that reading books by Jepson and Beranek have peaked my interest in tree climbing techniques. I have some trees on my property that would be fun trees to climb. While I will always most likely use spurs for harvesting, rope techniques are an interesting challenge.
 
There is a world of differance in polebelt and saddle; namely being supported by rib cage and kidneys all day long versus on backs of legs seat; that seem more designed for such activity, than compressing ribs and organs.

Some saddles come without legstraps and could ride up as Tom shows for polebelt. Saddle can have buttstrap and no leg grab. Rope Lanyards grabs tree better and in more usable combinations than one of them belt thingys; especially if ya figure out one of our homemaid adjsutable ones!

Then the suspension or shock in a fall incident sieaing on ribs to knock wind out and complicate, then hold in that position... Al ot of poles are just up and down, or similar; older poleman have been known to wise up and carry saddle, especially when aloft and in standing position for long periods of time.
 
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