running bowline vs. clove

[trevmcrev]

I think the weakness of a running bowline when pushed to the limits is not the strength of the knot but the rope on rope friction at the choke when it cinches resulting in a heat caused failure rather than a tensile failure.

The harder/faster the load the more heat.

Now if you're experiencing this during rigging then you're probably getting a bit silly, but you'll see it often when felling a whole tree or trunk using machinery or vehicles to pull.

Again, if you've got to pull that hard to make something go where you want you've got to ask yourself if it really should be done...

Adding a shackle to the running bowline to avoid the rope on rope cinching helps.

Personally, for general rigging i prefer knotless.

Spliced rigging line (stronger than knots) - Steel Carabiner or shackle - Rated Rigging Slings.

Fast to rig, fast to unrig on the ground and pretty foolproof.

 

[TreeLogic]

well said, trevmcrev. i've been going knotless for awhile now. though, when my rig line termination is a bowline, that's NOT perfectly knotless. i guess it's time to splice an eye in my stablebraid rigging line. both ends, or just one?

 

[eucmaninshorts]

This discussion was as hot as Husky vs. Stihl 3 decades ago. So to prove(?) which is stronger, we tied a bowline to one rope bumper and a clove to another then backed up the trucks. The bowline failed first every time. Knowing what knot to use when is the key.

 

[Grais]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj5JstoE_ek

a quick vid of the double bowline..

[/ QUOTE ]
Holey, did you actually just link me to that video Dan ?
Experts village ?
Are you high ?
If you have to wonder which knot will fail first, you never paid attention to how rope and knots interact. The bowline will never be as strong as the clove hitch simply due to knot geometry.
Its not rocket science.
If your putting the farm on the line, ie go big or go home, and using a bowline, your treading water. Ive seen more bowlines popped than any other knot. Yes its a great knot, but it is not the be all and end all of knots.

 

[Daniel]

bowline is considered an inferior knot by the rescue community... Kinda sorta maybe like we look at the square knot.. there is a reason for that... they can fail when repeatedly loaded.. that doesn't happen much in tree work.

You can use the knot w/o fail for 20 years and think its perfect... Then see it fail once and know better. I've seen it fail...

Here's another link for the double bowline:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Bowline.htm

I use a yosemite tie off.. the above uses a stopper knot..

 

[Tony]

[ QUOTE ]
This discussion was as hot as Husky vs. Stihl 3 decades ago. So to prove(?) which is stronger, we tied a bowline to one rope bumper and a clove to another then backed up the trucks. The bowline failed first every time. Knowing what knot to use when is the key.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool! Where did the bowline break?

Tony

 

[Norm_Hall]

I had 3 bowlines tested years ago. They all broke at the "horseshoe" bend of the knot. Makes sense, it's the 1 to 1 ratio bend.

 

[Tony]

That is what I have found too Norm, but I never did the " opposing truck test!"

Curious to see if the results were the same.

Tony

 

[southsoundtree]

marl and rb vs. clove?

half-hitch vs. clove?

 

[Frax]

I think all the points of 'this' versus' that have been made in this thread.

I think we are arguing different points though. The breaking strength of a knot and the stability of a knot are not the same thing.

The running bowline is more stable than the clove hitch. Clove hitches can roll out unless backed up with 2 half hitches.

Conversely, the clove hitch by itself would intuitively seem the more strong in terms of just pure breaking strength because of rope angles blah blah as has been stated.

I guess there is a third point too, the grippiness of the rope on the load. It would seem like the clove hitch would have more grip but if you add a marl to the running bowline and make sure the loop of the bowline is large, you have distributed a lot of rope around the load and increased grippiness a lot.

I prefer the running bowline with a marl, but I would think you should be running well below the breaking strength of either configuration. If you are running so close to the limits that you are worried about knot strength, well that's just bad.

 

[3tree]

This topic may be dead by now 'cause it's over a month old, but I think the situation determines the knot. A clove is more useful because of the FRICTION. 2+ turns around the piece of wood as opposed to 1 with bowline or running bowline (unless the situation calls for a marl). If the piece is heavy and not balanced a clove (correctly finished with 2 half hitches) has more surface contact. No nubs or stubs needed to hold it in place.

The rigging rope (and all other components) should be inspected prior to the job. It needs to be correct for the job regarding strength (new or used).