Rope questions…

[chiselbit]

I’m curious about the descending on a figure 8, ive seen that mentioned a couple times recently by presumably new’ish climbers. Are you just tending with your hand? Or do you have a prussik somewhere in the system? I guess my question is: if you let go with both hands do you stop? Or die

 

[Reach]

I’m curious about the descending on a figure 8, ive seen that mentioned a couple times recently by presumably new’ish climbers. Are you just tending with your hand? Or do you have a prussik somewhere in the system? I guess my question is: if you let go with both hands do you stop? Or die

In the rock climbing world, if you let go of the rope with a Figure 8, you die unless you have a friend below with a hand on the tail. Haul away on the tail and you can slow the descent of the guy above.

That used to feel normal to me, until I learned to climb trees professionally.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Arbos spend their time in a rope world built on 'let go/lock off'. Muscle memory is built on this to the point that it becomes The Law.

I've never liked seeing arbos descend on F8's or other rapell devices. Even with a mule/friction backup. Its too easy for muscle memory to rule which would lead to a fall...potentially fatal.

 

[Dan Cobb]

In the event of an out of control rappel, many unfortunate climbers have clutched a prusik placed above their rappel device all the way to impact at the bottom. It's instinctive to grab the rope harder with the hand that's tending the prusik when accelerating. I think arrangements with a prusik below the rappel device can be worthwhile.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I think arrangements with a...

I've read articles about both options. Neither is very satisfactory. Six of one...etc.

There are many descenders with built-in panic features. The best have the capacity to stop when either let go or the handle compressed. Sweet spot in the middle.

The I'd-esque version is quite well known. There are others though that are more commonly used in rope access that work better and have features that would put them ahead of the I'd-esque tools. The catch is that the are descenders. They wouldn't fit so well into tree work systems unless it were for descending out of the tops of West Coast tall timber.The multicenders that are available do such a fine job and maintain the Let go/Lock off function.

 

[Dan Cobb]

If a prusik is attached low on the side of your harness/saddle such that your brake hand is above the prusik and that hand must be kept low to tend the prusik, that may provide failsafe operation. Let go and the prusik should grab. Clutch too tightly and your hand *should* be drawn towards the rappel device, stopping the tending action and allowing the prusik to grab. In case the brake hand gets on the prusik, applying the death grip will prevent the prusik from grabbing, but will hopefully slow your rappel such that control is regained. The prusik must not be able to touch the rappel device under any circumstance or it may be useless.

 

[Vicente]

I've read articles about both options. Neither is very satisfactory. Six of one...etc.

There are many descenders with built-in panic features. The best have the capacity to stop when either let go or the handle compressed. Sweet spot in the middle.

The I'd-esque version is quite well known. There are others though that are more commonly used in rope access that work better and have features that would put them ahead of the I'd-esque tools. The catch is that the are descenders. They wouldn't fit so well into tree work systems unless it were for descending out of the tops of West Coast tall timber.The multicenders that are available do such a fine job and maintain the Let go/Lock off function.

My camp giant has the panic stop go to far either way it'll lock up let go of the lever while descending and the friction will lock it up, it's my favorite device to use while working if I can, it's limit is 11.5mm max for the rope though which is a bummer I use 11mm htp for all my climb lines due to that but would like to be able to use a fatter rope. The giant seems more sport oriented but is really a stout well made piece of gear but that's probably the reason for the small rope size, I'd love it if they made one for larger diameter rope that ran like 10.5-12.5 or 13mm.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Lots to learn from Gary Storrick's collection

2009 NSS Convention Display

www.verticalmuseum.com

I've got an Antec Double stop

Near Bobbins: Antec Double Stop

www.verticalmuseum.com

...and like it a lot. But my fav...which isn't listed in Storrick's collection...has an adjuster so that the rate of descent can be changed depending on the weight or speed desired. The device is rated for a two person load and with the turn of a wing nut the descent speed can be adjusted so that the rescuer doesn't have to feather the release handle. Quite a nicely made tool. One that I have hardly used though.

 

[LBF]

I’m curious about the descending on a figure 8, ive seen that mentioned a couple times recently by presumably new’ish climbers. Are you just tending with your hand? Or do you have a prussik somewhere in the system? I guess my question is: if you let go with both hands do you stop? Or die

Yup, let go and die. I learned to be comfortable with it long ago. I also discovered you need a clear head to use it and just free falling and try to slow up right at the bottom is dangerous. But used correctly with heavy leather gloves and it’s a nice smooth decent. Certainly if I am up in a tree and it’s time to come down and I don’t feel like I’m entirely comfortable with it, I’ll throw a Prussik on and take it easy. But unless your decent device has a panic feature (locks up if you press too hard or not enough), any decent device can put you out of control if you panic. I was always taught to run the rope around the figure 8, then behind your butt and tend with the hand on the tail end (thus if you have the tail on your right after passing through the figure 8, you tend with your left and vice-versa). The harder you grip, the slower you go. I think it’s more rock-climber origin.

 

[LBF]

So I found a handy branch (surprisingly hard around here, most are not anywhere near horizontal unless they are way up), and decided to do some testing/experimenting of my gear and the two known ropes that I have (Sterling Scion and Notch Banshee). Took a couple tries to get my throw line where I wanted it (didn’t drag out my cannon for the throw line), then tried installing one of my home made friction savers (bought rated rings and used some 16 strand braided climbing line, made one fixed and one adjustable, I tested the fixed). Friction saver went in nice and neat and I had to stand there and admire it for a minute. It was only up about 25’, but good enough for testing.

Started with the Scion and my Akimbo, used the Notch Jet Step. Liked the feel of the Scion in my hand and it climbed pretty nice. Not overly happy with how it knots or coils up but it works. And it’s the most expensive, of course. Ran through my gear nicely though. Didn’t think to try it with my Prussic cords though before I pulled it down. Went all the way up to the top and hung out a bit.

Swapped that out for the Banshee and it definitely seemed more stretchy and a little less for the hand even though it’s less than a millimeter difference (11.7mm vs 12.5mm for the Scion). Climbed well, knots well, and coils well, just kinda springy. Went all the way up, hung out a bit and came back down. Did try my Prussic cords and found that they didn’t seem to want to work as advertised. Once I weighted them, I couldn’t get them to slide (three wraps up and three down) and two wraps wouldn’t hold. Tried both the 8mm X 28” and the 10mm X 30”, so I’m not entirely sure what went wrong there.

A couple side notes… I need to set up a clip for making the Akimbo self-tending. It quickly became vastly annoying to have to hand tend it. That said, it may have been more self tending had I attached it to my chest harness (I have the Petzl Sequoia SRT with the correct chest harness that converts it to a fall arrest rated harness so I can use the chest ring) as opposed to having it attached to the rope bridge which made things rather floppy.

The other side note was that I found the Notch Jet Step foot ascender to be a slick bit of hardware. Easy to kick out of, easy to hook back into, doesn’t seem to easily slip out of unless you are trying to though. Most importantly, it became self tending instantly with no weight on the tail of the line.

 

[Tuebor]

Did try my Prussic cords and found that they didn’t seem to want to work as advertised. Once I weighted them, I couldn’t get them to slide (three wraps up and three down) and two wraps wouldn’t hold. Tried both the 8mm X 28” and the 10mm X 30”, so I’m not entirely sure what went wrong there.

Were you trying to descend on the prusiks? Can't do that on a prusik alone. From your original post, I was under the impression you were going to use the Figure 8 for descent.

 

[Dan Cobb]

... Last year I was in two auto accidents 5 days apart and suffered a concussion from each, among other injuries....

You're extremely lucky to be alive.

"Approximately 80 percent of concussions resolve over seven to 14 days, with an average of 10 days."

"Second impact syndrome, or SIS, happens when the brain swells rapidly shortly after a person suffers a second concussion before symptoms from an earlier concussion have subsided. This event is rare, but when it does happen, it is most often fatal."

 

[LBF]

Were you trying to descend on the prusiks? Can't do that on a prusik alone. From your original post, I was under the impression you were going to use the Figure 8 for descent.

I was under the impression that prussics could be used for going up and down much like the Akimbo, for work positioning, but on the Banshee line at least, going down didn’t seem possible. For dropping out of the canopy when I’m done up there I fully intend on using a figure 8 at this point

 

[Vicente]

I was under the impression that prussics could be used for going up and down much like the Akimbo, for work positioning, but on the Banshee line at least, going down didn’t seem possible. For dropping out of the canopy when I’m done up there I fully intend on using a figure 8 at this point

You can use them with mrs but not srt, it's not going to be as smooth and easy as a mechanical or a mechanical assist to go with the hitch line a hitchhiker or rope wrench. I used to ascend using a hitch with a foot and knee ascender then switch to my camp giant to work/descend, I use a rrp now for spike-less climbs and sometimes I'll use it and my ascenders when doing oak removal because it's often easier than gaffing all the way up the tree.

 

[Tuebor]

I was under the impression that prussics could be used for going up and down much like the Akimbo, for work positioning, but on the Banshee line at least, going down didn’t seem possible. For dropping out of the canopy when I’m done up there I fully intend on using a figure 8 at this point

Tree workers using prusiks for positioning (up, down, in, out) are adding a secondary friction source to take some of the weight off the prusik. Usually they are using the Rope Wrench:

 

[LBF]

You're extremely lucky to be alive.

"Approximately 80 percent of concussions resolve over seven to 14 days, with an average of 10 days."

"Second impact syndrome, or SIS, happens when the brain swells rapidly shortly after a person suffers a second concussion before symptoms from an earlier concussion have subsided. This event is rare, but when it does happen, it is most often fatal."

Sure don’t feel overly lucky for the struggle it’s been recovering, but yes, I am indeed rather lucky. I was also very fortunate not to completely lose any particular function, just quite impaired. The concussions happened mid September, and I spent a couple months gimping around on a cane, not tolerant really to any sounds over conversation in a quiet room, sudden motion and bright lights. I’m getting closer now to where I was prior to the accidents, but am still able to hit my functional limits fairly easily. I can handle about 4-5 hours of moderate activity, then I need a couple hours to settle before I can begin again. Up until about a week ago there was always some level of dizziness but it’s finally getting to where I have periods of none. 12/10 would not recommend anyone going through this. Don’t think I’d even wish it on my worst enemy. The worst is the people who don’t understand and say things like “I’ve had concussions before and a couple days everything is fine, you must be faking.” If only…

 

[LBF]

Tree workers using prusiks for positioning (up, down, in, out) are adding a secondary friction source to take some of the weight off the prusik. Usually they are using the Rope Wrench:

Ahh, I see now. Seems like there was some misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Vicente]

@LBF let me know if you want to pick up a rope wrench one of the guys who works with me is wanting to switch to a rrp instead. It's the rope wrench with the fusion tether he'll probably throw in a stiched hitch cord for it as well.

 

[Winchman]

Not overly happy with how it....coils up....

I couldn't help being curious about this comment. Are you coiling your ropes? One of the first things I learned when I started climbing was that just flaking rope into a bag or bucket is a real time saver. I've found discarded cat litter buckets are the lightest, best size, and have the most comfortable handle.

 

[LBF]

I couldn't help being curious about this comment. Are you coiling your ropes? One of the first things I learned when I started climbing was that just flaking rope into a bag or bucket is a real time saver. I've found discarded cat litter buckets are the lightest, best size, and have the most comfortable handle.

That’s a good idea. I learned to shake out coils long ago, it’s how we always wound up extension cords and hoses back when I did concrete construction so it’s a natural instinct to want to shake out coils. The Banshee line only decided to coil nice after climbing on it but the Scion didn’t seem to want to make neat coils either way. I believe my parents have some cat litter buckets and I had been trying to decide how best to store the rope and keep it away from mice (we have a serious mouse problem around here despite an ongoing battle of traps), so litter buckets would be a solution.