Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
Ring to ring frictions saver for SRT DdRT combo
- Thread starter Richard Mumford-yoyoman
- Start date
tuttle
New member
- Location
- Somewhere in the 21st century
I do, I dont bother with alpine, just prusik it on.
Mines made from dyneema core 8mm with stainless rings, its a 2ton setup, but most people cry thier eyes out when they see it.
Mines made from dyneema core 8mm with stainless rings, its a 2ton setup, but most people cry thier eyes out when they see it.
SoftBankHawks
Branched out member
- Location
- Japan
YoYoMan - Over here we use hand spliced ring and rings, the large ring is a 34mm anchor ring so we can cinch onto the working side and move back into a retrievable 2:1. The thing is though, I'm wary of talking about the technique as it can be misconstrued so easily. There are safer ways to turn a 2:1 into 1:1 and for someone like yourself who climbs alone a crown retrievable base anchor would be great. I do something with the small dmm hub, it goes like this......
1. Set the rope over a crotch and push the spliced end through the centre hole on the hub. Pull through approx. 2m and tie an alpine butterfly, pull it against the hub.
2. tie a bowline using the splice and the tail of the line - so two separate pieces of rope. You have made a loop.
3. 1:1 up. lanyard in and pull up on the tail, un-tie the knots and pull the working end back to you.
Paul
1. Set the rope over a crotch and push the spliced end through the centre hole on the hub. Pull through approx. 2m and tie an alpine butterfly, pull it against the hub.
2. tie a bowline using the splice and the tail of the line - so two separate pieces of rope. You have made a loop.
3. 1:1 up. lanyard in and pull up on the tail, un-tie the knots and pull the working end back to you.
Paul
YoYo, for the ultimate in safety, when you spike the Butterfly knot, try to capture the eye of the knot AND the tail of the line.
I often use the Rr FS canopy anchor method. Most often in trees with sensitive bark, or when I want to achieve a PSP (TIP) that doesn't offer the safety factor needed when base anchored.
I also employ a mid-line attachable version which uses an E2E sling. Attach an oval 'biner and Pinto pulley in one eye (the Pinto will be the 'small ring'). Attach a small 'biner, such as a DMM Shadow, into the other eye (this will be the 'large ring').
The advantage of the system described above is this:
-You can base tie and enter the tree, followed by creating a new (higher, more desirable, etc...) TIP without having to "yard" any climbing line. Simply lanyard in, place the sling over the new TIP, and load the climb line into the Pinto and into the Shadow. Tie your Butterfly behind the Pinto, spike it, and off you go. The Butterfly must be tied in a location that leaves the base tie slack in order to achieve the 1x load on the new TIP.
I often use the Rr FS canopy anchor method. Most often in trees with sensitive bark, or when I want to achieve a PSP (TIP) that doesn't offer the safety factor needed when base anchored.
I also employ a mid-line attachable version which uses an E2E sling. Attach an oval 'biner and Pinto pulley in one eye (the Pinto will be the 'small ring'). Attach a small 'biner, such as a DMM Shadow, into the other eye (this will be the 'large ring').
The advantage of the system described above is this:
-You can base tie and enter the tree, followed by creating a new (higher, more desirable, etc...) TIP without having to "yard" any climbing line. Simply lanyard in, place the sling over the new TIP, and load the climb line into the Pinto and into the Shadow. Tie your Butterfly behind the Pinto, spike it, and off you go. The Butterfly must be tied in a location that leaves the base tie slack in order to achieve the 1x load on the new TIP.
JontreeHI
Branched out member
- Location
- West Michigan lakeshore
Oceans do you have a picture of that set up? I'm having trouble envisioning retrieval.
Thanks
Jon
Thanks
Jon
I'll post one up, but it'll be a while. I'm away from home for a bit. In the mean time, I'll try to exain it a bit better...it's hard when a picture can speak a thousand words.
Imagine a typical Rr FS hanging in a branch union. Let's say the large ring is on the left, and the small ring is on the right. Now, imagine a Shadow carabiner on the left (instead of the large ring), and a Pinto pulley on the right (instead of the small ring). Run the eye of your climb line through the Pinto, then through the Shadow just as you would feed it into a normal ring to ring friction saver. Tie your Butterfly so it sits up against the Pinto. The Butterfly will act as a stopper up against the textile friendly frame of the Pinto. Spike the Butterfly, of course.
For retrieval, pull down on the tail of line below the Butterfly. Your retrieval ball should be able to pass through the Shadow, but not the Pinto.
Again, one of the nice things about that anchor system is that you can install everything onto the climb line at any point, mid-line, whereas in a ring to ring, the line would have to be fed through the rings. I described it differently in the paragraph above, just for the sake of visualization.
I hope that makes a clearer picture. Like I said, some things are tough to explain.
Imagine a typical Rr FS hanging in a branch union. Let's say the large ring is on the left, and the small ring is on the right. Now, imagine a Shadow carabiner on the left (instead of the large ring), and a Pinto pulley on the right (instead of the small ring). Run the eye of your climb line through the Pinto, then through the Shadow just as you would feed it into a normal ring to ring friction saver. Tie your Butterfly so it sits up against the Pinto. The Butterfly will act as a stopper up against the textile friendly frame of the Pinto. Spike the Butterfly, of course.
For retrieval, pull down on the tail of line below the Butterfly. Your retrieval ball should be able to pass through the Shadow, but not the Pinto.
Again, one of the nice things about that anchor system is that you can install everything onto the climb line at any point, mid-line, whereas in a ring to ring, the line would have to be fed through the rings. I described it differently in the paragraph above, just for the sake of visualization.
I hope that makes a clearer picture. Like I said, some things are tough to explain.
Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
Oceans, thanks for the comments.
I do understand what you're talking about.
I wish there was available, or somebody would invent, a ring inside a ring that would counter-rotate. If each ring was only three quarters complete, when they are aligned it would create a gap for midline attachment. When opposed they would be an enclosed circle.
Anyway I was asked the other day about doing that to the pinto pulley in another thread and it just got me thinking. I'm getting the impression that it is generally an excepted practice but with much caution. Again it comes down to using tools for something other than their designed purpose. I do think that the pinto pulley and the rig pulley are ideal because of the rope friendly edges. It also has the becket to provide added strength to keep the frame on the pulley from spreading. I guess I became concerned that if someone saw the idea, and used just any pulley, it would not be as strong. This complicates things and makes it where you cannot attach it midline but I started to think about putting a small rigging plate on the face or opening to the pulley. But actually I find the configuration acceptable to me. Seems I always find myself a little sideways with that, "not the intended use" concept.
PS. I don't think the rings are rated for this load either.
Cheers
Richard.
I do understand what you're talking about.
I wish there was available, or somebody would invent, a ring inside a ring that would counter-rotate. If each ring was only three quarters complete, when they are aligned it would create a gap for midline attachment. When opposed they would be an enclosed circle.
Anyway I was asked the other day about doing that to the pinto pulley in another thread and it just got me thinking. I'm getting the impression that it is generally an excepted practice but with much caution. Again it comes down to using tools for something other than their designed purpose. I do think that the pinto pulley and the rig pulley are ideal because of the rope friendly edges. It also has the becket to provide added strength to keep the frame on the pulley from spreading. I guess I became concerned that if someone saw the idea, and used just any pulley, it would not be as strong. This complicates things and makes it where you cannot attach it midline but I started to think about putting a small rigging plate on the face or opening to the pulley. But actually I find the configuration acceptable to me. Seems I always find myself a little sideways with that, "not the intended use" concept.
PS. I don't think the rings are rated for this load either.
Cheers
Richard.
JontreeHI
Branched out member
- Location
- West Michigan lakeshore
Thanks oceans that makes it pretty clear. This is a good solution to a problem that I run into often-I typically go for canopy anchor vs basal.
I'll give it a try
I'll give it a try
I'm right there with ya', Richard. I don't think there's another pulley out there that I would ever consider using in this manner. I'm sure there's another way to accomplish the goal of a mid-line attachable anchoring system that could be oriented in multie configurations (basket, cinch, choke, etc...).
Numerous climbing saddle bridges are using stopper knots as life support, and I see the merit. I thought a long time about using the Pinto in this way before actually using it. I would not use the Pinto Rig...just the smaller bushing version. The climbing line diameter was a consideration, along with the knot-ability. The larger and more supple the line, the better. There was no leap of faith, either. I set it up in the house and played around low and slow for a while.
I see a lot of innovative ideas and manufacturing focus on climbing tools, and anchoring systems could use some attention as well.
Numerous climbing saddle bridges are using stopper knots as life support, and I see the merit. I thought a long time about using the Pinto in this way before actually using it. I would not use the Pinto Rig...just the smaller bushing version. The climbing line diameter was a consideration, along with the knot-ability. The larger and more supple the line, the better. There was no leap of faith, either. I set it up in the house and played around low and slow for a while.
I see a lot of innovative ideas and manufacturing focus on climbing tools, and anchoring systems could use some attention as well.
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks oceans that makes it pretty clear. This is a good solution to a problem that I run into often-I typically go for canopy anchor vs basal.
I'll give it a try
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool, Jon. There are so many creative ways to set up these anchor systems. I remember a good amount of discussion about this Rr FS canopy anchor method a while ago...buried somewhere in a Rope Wrench thread. I think Cary Gibson posted a video of his method as well.
What type of trees and work orders do you most often encounter?
Thanks oceans that makes it pretty clear. This is a good solution to a problem that I run into often-I typically go for canopy anchor vs basal.
I'll give it a try
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool, Jon. There are so many creative ways to set up these anchor systems. I remember a good amount of discussion about this Rr FS canopy anchor method a while ago...buried somewhere in a Rope Wrench thread. I think Cary Gibson posted a video of his method as well.
What type of trees and work orders do you most often encounter?
Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
[ QUOTE ]
.....
Numerous climbing saddle bridges are using stopper knots as life support, and I see the merit....
......I set it up in the house and played around low and slow for a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, interesting that we are always talking about load ratings and using the device in the manner in which it was intended and tested. Now take the Paw Rigging Plate that is found on many of the popular saddles. The bridge is passed thru with a stopper knot on the back side putting the load in a bending moment on the plate. I'm comfortable with it and I'm sure much thought was given to it. But like you said....
One more funny thing, talking about set up in the house and low and slow. Attached is my "low and slow" in the house. I finally found a good use for a "living room"!!!!
.....
Numerous climbing saddle bridges are using stopper knots as life support, and I see the merit....
......I set it up in the house and played around low and slow for a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, interesting that we are always talking about load ratings and using the device in the manner in which it was intended and tested. Now take the Paw Rigging Plate that is found on many of the popular saddles. The bridge is passed thru with a stopper knot on the back side putting the load in a bending moment on the plate. I'm comfortable with it and I'm sure much thought was given to it. But like you said....
One more funny thing, talking about set up in the house and low and slow. Attached is my "low and slow" in the house. I finally found a good use for a "living room"!!!!
Attachments
Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
Thanks for the comments.
I put some notes on a video.
Just wanted to clarify a few things.
I appreciate the inputs. I realize sometimes I am a little out of the "loop" and may not follow the "straight and narrow" so when the questions come up I just want you guys to know I appreciate it!!! ALWAYS LEARNING. Seems like the more you learn, the less you know.
Concerns about using the pulley for SRT ascent
I put some notes on a video.
Just wanted to clarify a few things.
I appreciate the inputs. I realize sometimes I am a little out of the "loop" and may not follow the "straight and narrow" so when the questions come up I just want you guys to know I appreciate it!!! ALWAYS LEARNING. Seems like the more you learn, the less you know.
Concerns about using the pulley for SRT ascent
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Great video!
Adding a rigging plate as a washer sure does wring out the last bit of efficiency.
If I were ever concerned about how a stopper knot loads the side of a ring or pulley I'd probably choose to use a figure eight on a bight as a stopper. The double loop of rope results in a nice fair loading face when used to jam the ring/pulley. The F8oab is bulkier than a butterfly so it's less likely to get into the ring/pulley.
Adding a rigging plate as a washer sure does wring out the last bit of efficiency.
If I were ever concerned about how a stopper knot loads the side of a ring or pulley I'd probably choose to use a figure eight on a bight as a stopper. The double loop of rope results in a nice fair loading face when used to jam the ring/pulley. The F8oab is bulkier than a butterfly so it's less likely to get into the ring/pulley.
tuttle
New member
- Location
- Somewhere in the 21st century
Word Of Warning!
at 8.22secs on the video, you have a delta link, these are good for ziplining and other rigging.
Do not use them for climbing.
I have pulled them apart, where the screw has strip threaded at less than 150kgs of force.
at 8.22secs on the video, you have a delta link, these are good for ziplining and other rigging.
Do not use them for climbing.
I have pulled them apart, where the screw has strip threaded at less than 150kgs of force.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Tuttle
WAs that screw link a Maillon Rapide steel screw link or one from a Pacific Rim country? Maybe aluminum?
I've used only MRs for my whole climbing career and never had a bad one.
WAs that screw link a Maillon Rapide steel screw link or one from a Pacific Rim country? Maybe aluminum?
I've used only MRs for my whole climbing career and never had a bad one.
tuttle
New member
- Location
- Somewhere in the 21st century
They were stainless 6mm ones, bought from a UK firm, french company I believe.
Best just give one a test.
Best just give one a test.
Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
[ QUOTE ]
Word Of Warning!
at 8.22secs on the video, you have a delta link, these are good for ziplining and other rigging.
Do not use them for climbing.
I have pulled them apart, where the screw has strip threaded at less than 150kgs of force.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a few SS from Wesspur.
I have noted that because of the distance between the spine side and screw side, the delta link will bend slightly when loaded if not properly tightened. (Hand snug) Subsequent attempts to screw the the link down can cross the thread and strip them.
Thanks for the observation.
Word Of Warning!
at 8.22secs on the video, you have a delta link, these are good for ziplining and other rigging.
Do not use them for climbing.
I have pulled them apart, where the screw has strip threaded at less than 150kgs of force.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a few SS from Wesspur.
I have noted that because of the distance between the spine side and screw side, the delta link will bend slightly when loaded if not properly tightened. (Hand snug) Subsequent attempts to screw the the link down can cross the thread and strip them.
Thanks for the observation.
JontreeHI
Branched out member
- Location
- West Michigan lakeshore
[ QUOTE ]
What type of trees and work orders do you most often encounter?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lots of mango or monkey pod, or banyan. Often I can just go for a pretty good TIP just to get going, and when I get up there I may see a better one, maybe higher or stronger or better situated to hit more of the tree. My most common set up is a ring/ring jammed with a rigging plate and alpine butterfly with Bonner's accessory chord pull down line. Kind of cumbersome to be dragging that whole set up with me and putting it together more than once, but once I'm situated I love it.
I jam the large ring on the friction saver, but notice that your set up, oceans, and yoyo too, jam the small ring. Any insight to (dis)advantages for either?
Jon
What type of trees and work orders do you most often encounter?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lots of mango or monkey pod, or banyan. Often I can just go for a pretty good TIP just to get going, and when I get up there I may see a better one, maybe higher or stronger or better situated to hit more of the tree. My most common set up is a ring/ring jammed with a rigging plate and alpine butterfly with Bonner's accessory chord pull down line. Kind of cumbersome to be dragging that whole set up with me and putting it together more than once, but once I'm situated I love it.
I jam the large ring on the friction saver, but notice that your set up, oceans, and yoyo too, jam the small ring. Any insight to (dis)advantages for either?
Jon
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
I like to choke the rings. Prior to sending up the eye splice to the R-R i place a 28MM SMC Arborist ring on the line. When the eye comes back down I capture it with a 10MM SS Quick Link, next thru the arborist Ring and to a 30" Bluewater accelerator lanyard with a Biner on the other end. This is then pulled up and choked on the Ring to Ring Friction Saver. Now I can climb up SRT , then Connect to te Lanyard biner and I am in Ddrt. [image][/image] [image]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=156815034513040&set=a.156815024513041.1073741870.100005536323085&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf[/image]
