Rigging down logs stance

[Tom Dunlap]

Strapping the butt isn't something I ever felt necessary. YMMV

If I were worried about a barber chair I might no rip the hinge. Another mitigation is to cut the corners of the face/apex/hinge

If I could keep the top attached until it has invertedI'd be happy.

Of course this now means that the climber within that area where a bounce of the butt could smash them. No stalling the cut or pinching the wood from set-back.

Once the hinge has ripped and the top is on its way down the cutter needs to be ready to cut off the hinge to allow the top to drop.

Learning to rip the hinge with a top the size in the OP vid would be dangerous. Practice by taking that out in 3-4 chunks

Oh...just thought of this too...

The tagline which is left at the top is used to initiate the tip needs to be rigged with a long 3:1. The ground team needs to yard in the top quickly so have your dance choreographed

 

[southsoundtree]

I have many barberchair prone species to work with.

 

[Treetopflyer]

If we’re low /close to obstacles , no room to run the rope, needs snubbed off . I’ll set up cuts with thick hinge, exit the tree and pull over the piece over.
This is very limited use in special circumstances but works well so you don’t get beat up.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I’ll set up cuts with thick hinge, exit the tree and pull over the piece over.

Ripping the hinge.

 

[Daniel]

Keeping the top connected longer will reduce the whipping loads on the rigging point. Use a real wide open face and thick hinge. Leave a tagline in the top of the cut piece so it can be pulled over not cut. Take advantage of using the hinge to control energy. Ideally the top folds down gently and hangs on hinge wood. Then cut it free to drop. The impact load is straight down the trunk not radially

I called this 'Ripping the Hinge'

bad advice Tom... that hinge isn't going to slow the speed of the piece down enough to make a differnce... What world are you living in that you think it's possible to do negative rigging a big top and have the hinge hold on after the face closes? Seriously.... that's NEVER going to happen...

In suburban east coast trees , the real concern is not the way the block gets loaded (whipping loads as you call it).. The greatest concern is the impact when the piece slams back into the trunk.. we don't often deal with tall skinny conifers that give the west coast men those wild rides...

IN our trees, letting the piece run impacts lower on the trunk, which greatly reduces shaken climber syndrome...

 

[Tom Dunlap]

bad advice Tom... that hinge isn't going to slow the speed of the piece down enough to make a differnce... What world are you living in that you think it's possible to do negative rigging a big top and have the hinge hold on after the face closes? Seriously.... that's NEVER going to happen...

Its worked for me MANY times and not just in Minneapolis.

I've used a combo of wide open-faces with a ripped hinge to greatly reduce the spar whipping that tends to rag-doll climbers. If I were more skilled with engineering and computer graphics this wouldn't be hard to illustrate.

Ripping the hinge works with CERTAIN situations. Not ALL.

Manipulating holding wood in a hinge when felling a spar has been touted as a way to steer the fall. That works and is used...sometimes.

There is no universal solution.

 

[Treetopflyer]

bad advice Tom... that hinge isn't going to slow the speed of the piece down enough to make a differnce... What world are you living in that you think it's possible to do negative rigging a big top and have the hinge hold on after the face closes? Seriously.... that's NEVER going to happen...

In suburban east coast trees , the real concern is not the way the block gets loaded (whipping loads as you call it).. The greatest concern is the impact when the piece slams back into the trunk.. we don't often deal with tall skinny conifers that give the west coast men those wild rides...

IN our trees, letting the piece run impacts lower on the trunk, which greatly reduces shaken climber syndrome...

I thought we were talking about rigging down logs here , not big Tops.
Not the same for sure in the physics department

 

[TreeCo]

It seems to me the best stance is going to be with the climbers spikes in the trunk forming a line that is perpendicular to the direction of the falling log. At least then spike location, knees, forearms and elbows can push back against the climber's lanyard in an effort to stay stable on the trunk.

Other locations will result in rotational forces between the climber and the bole and if the climber loses their stance they get the wildest of video worthy rides.

 

[Mick Dempsey]

I stand behind, because it’s usually me that pushes the piece off.
Once it starts to go you don’t have time to do much except brace your knee and arms.

 

[rico]

Yes, going big for clicks, it seems it’s a thing.

Only neg rigging when unavoidable is my mantra.

Yep. With all that open real estate below it appears that he had far easier and safer options. He also took way too long of a log for the height he was working at. Letting it run was not really an option fro the groundie, so a mild beating was inevitable.

 

[rico]

I also never understood why guys stand 180 degrees opposite their lay when negative rigging, as it is generally where a majority of the movement happens. I very rarely push pieces over (gravity, wedges, tagline), so I am usually standing at 90-120 degrees of my lay. In my world thats the sweet spot, and no matter how subpar the ground support is I very rarely get a ride worth screaming at someone over.

 

[evo]

If I’m pushing straight behind, if not slightly off to the side about 45 degrees to the hinge and obviously behind. Yet if there is risk of foot crush I’ll take that into account, plan for the worst.
We are lucky much of the time and whenever practical I’ll rig from an neighboring tree and a holdback.

 

[Daniel]

I thought we were talking about rigging down logs here , not big Tops.
Not the same for sure in the physics department

Look at the video posted by the OP... https://www.facebook.com/reel/378961651407319

Is there any way in any world that anyone can hang such a log on the hinge and then go back to cut the hinge fibers to release the piece? ANSWER ...... NFW..no way... no how...

Is there any way to use the hinge to significantly alter the force and momentum of such a log after the hinge breaks? again NFW....

If we are talking about a log as per the video: Tom is spouting complete nonsense...

it doesn't matter if it's a log or a top being negatively rigged.. the forces on the tree or the rigging on anything even close to that kind of mass cannot be significantly altered with the hinge....

 

[evo]

Simple math, stand on a cliff, hold your hand out and drop a ball.
Now stand on the same cliff, and throw a speed ball straight down.

Translate that to initiation of a rotational force. If you cut fast thin hinge, that is the speed ball. Some of this follows the same logic as super deep notches when chunking down.

Recently at a chapter conference there was some data presented from the BC (and Ontario?), about different rotational forces impacting spar movements and forces at the root crown. All in hemlock from observation of climber deaths from hemlock root crown failures. It makes a fucken difference.

Open face was the worst, and narrower humbolts were the least.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Open face was the worst, and narrower humbolts were the least.

Please expand worst/best

 

[Daniel]

Open face was the worst, and narrower humbolts were the least.

"best" as in narrow humboldts are much less likely to kill you.... than the nonsensical method Tom suggests...

Humboldts break the hinge faster than trad or open face... I've thought a lot about the difference between the way the forces act and the hinge breaks on a humboldt vs a trad or open face. In closely examining video I have come to the conclusion that given all other factors are consistant, the trad or open face holds on 10-15+ degrees longer (dependingon species and size) after the face closes, than the humboldt. The practical value of that knowledge to me is appied when making jump cuts, where the faster and easier the hinge breaks the better it allows the piece's forward momentum to carry the piece unimpeded.. And the humboldt allows me to more accurately estimate how long the hinge will hold so I can adjust the how far to open the face when throwing tops. Hint.. it's usually about 10-20 degrees.

And that same effect is going to make a huge difference in the way that folding tops (be they logs or full canopies) are going to spring load the remaining stem. When that face closes the top is going to start pulling hard forward on the lower portion of the stem. The longer the hinge holds, the more time it has to start pulling on the stem. The further out the top streches horizontally when the face closes (from a wider face) the more leverage the top will have to pull hard on the lower stem. And the more the momentum of the top gets held up when the face closes and before the hinge breaks, the greater the force will be pulling on the lower stem. Thus the narrow humboldt is preferable because the top doesn't have anywhere near the momentum when the face closes and the hinge on the humboldt breaks faster and easier with less resistance than the trad or open face. And when taking tops the humboldt also offers added protection to keep the but from sliding back off the cut should the top brush other trees during the fall.

All of the above reasoning makes clear just how bad Tom's suggestion is.

Simple math, stand on a cliff, hold your hand out and drop a ball.
Now stand on the same cliff, and throw a speed ball straight down.

That's a bad anaology.... and particlarly bad in this scenario, where you don't want the hinge to hold any longer or with any more reistance than necessary. And I have experimented a lot with trying to use a hinge to slow the fall to try to reduce lawn damage upon impact. With rare exceptions from trees like hemlock with extremely strong holding wood where the top can actually be stopped when the face closes, I have found that the additional ability of a stronger hinge has very little effect in reducing the force of imapct, becasue either way the hinge breaks so early in the fall that the tree has plenty of time to pick up speed and the speed at impact is virtually the same...

And to emphaisize the most imortant point here.. when taking out tops, you DON'T WANT THE HINGE TO HOLD...

Given your level of experience: you know that.. So why do you spout such nonsense.. and why AM I the only person on this site to call Tom's suggestion total garbage?

 

[evo]

Given your level of experience: you know that.. So why do you spout such nonsense.. and why AM I the only person on this site to call Tom's suggestion total garbage?

Not sure where you have been, but things have been grand here.

There is a huge pulling effect and it’s a fine balance of holding the wood slowing the rotation and cutting enough so it won’t pull the stem along with the rotation.

But to answer your question I have no horses in the grandstand ego, ‘I’m the best of the best’ bullshit. Go back to your YouTube comment section ego stroking land, it suits you much better there

 

[evo]

Please expand worst/best

Stem pull when taking a top. Open face pulled the stem in the direction of the lay the most.

They didn’t test lowering stem wood. As that was not the focus.

With rigging a spar, laying the load into the rigging system as slow and gentle as possible is best. No need to speed ball the log into the line, obviously the lower down the less push pull due to stem taper. So if taking chunks a wider face is best with a thicker hinge but a balance as no one want to be cutting more face than needed when standing in spurs

 

[Matias]

Stem pull when taking a top. Open face pulled the stem in the direction of the lay the most.

They didn’t test lowering stem wood. As that was not the focus.

With rigging a spar, laying the load into the rigging system as slow and gentle as possible is best. No need to speed ball the log into the line, obviously the lower down the less push pull due to stem taper. So if taking chunks a wider face is best with a thicker hinge but a balance as no one want to be cutting more face than needed when standing in spurs

Thats what the removal crew I work with has taught me. Glad to hear there's some been some group testing that confirms it. I have felt the results and can't say I feel otherwise.

 

[Steve Connally]

Initially I was thinking with DMSC but after reading Rico I guess i'm more like 120 to 150. It depends really but to be totally honest I had somebody lock up a pine log on me and took a really bad beating. I blasted a couple ribs pretty bad. That killed it for me. I hate negative rigging logs on skinny trees now. I don't mind the jarring but the oscillation is what gets me mentally. Just expecting to get battered so bad I get thrown off the spar is most often in the back of my head. I need to get over that I suppose.