Reckless indifference

[ QUOTE ]
what route was it? where?.....dude shoulda bailed if he was outta his comfort zone craggin'.....this thread has nothing to do with treework.

[/ QUOTE ]

Location wasn't specified that I remember. It's called Hell's Angel, 9 pitches, apparently granite (igneous) friction.

Dude came unclipped and cratered... head trauma.
 
[ QUOTE ]
and nothing to do with treework....

[/ QUOTE ]

Like lots of stuff that ends up here in the 'Awakenings' forum.

If I was paranoid I'd say that a case is being built against arboriculture and we are being fed to 'the man'.

As an industry we obviously need closer scrutiny!
beerchug.gif
 
Back up at 1:04 Treehumper made a post that sync's with the way that I read the article.

I think that the article is a work of fiction, not a real story. My take on the article is more along the lines of how complacent people are about calling out dangerous acts.

I've lead wilderness trips for many years. They were in the middle of February on the MN/Canada border...camping, not in cabins. Is that extreme? You bet! In those trips we developed a leadership hierarchy where everyone could call anyone on a safety issue. This is where I developed the 'Vote-Veto' system. A loose, but agreed upon, structure where everyone has an equal vote.

Many times in the weeks after those trips I went on personal trips with other leaders. Some of these people were NOLS/Outward Bound full time leaders with a lot more skill in the wilderness, in all seasons and biomes, and more group skills than me. We ALWAYS had some sort of leadership talk so that we had agreement on decision making.

This is the sort of model that I've used at work too. The first day hire should have the ability, and support, to call the owner of the company on a safety issue without fear of repercussion. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. After an accident or near miss does anyone want to play a 'regret tape' and wish that they woulda/coulda done something different.

The pot issue in the story wasn't really germaine to what I got out of the story.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Surely it could given the indifference so many employers show toward safety and the use of PPE. It would take someone with some serious balls to actually take it to trial but it would surely be a wake up call to the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I'm backing up even further... I agree completely that it could be rewritten for tree work. Thing is, in tree work you do have designated leaders, they're paid more to be responsible for the work party and they have authority to say 'no you can't get high or wear a ball cap and climb that tree.'. I DO believe some company owners or foremen are guilty of manslaughter because of pressuring workers to work unsafely in the name of squeezing out a few extra bucks.

I was fortunate that the Guy who trained me wasn't such a person and showed remarkable patience while I unfouled ropes and chased 3/4" water sprouts, etc. He gave me a lot of grief on the ground but never while I was climbing.

I was on the wrong tack here because I was focused on the 'police' report and I stand by what I said about rock climbing.
 
I read the article and thought it may very well be a piece of fiction and took it at face value for telling a tale of lapsed responsibility. If it were true all the more so. Why do you immediately doubt the veracity and presume a vendetta of sorts?

If I had badgered someone to go on a trip where the risks were seen by that person to exceed their abilities then it would be my responsibility to prepare them with foreknowledge of those risks and what preparations should be taken. Not recommending proper footwear for the climb???? What's with that?

It doesn't come across in the article as a casual request to come climbing as you've described. Take it for what it's worth, The guy who pressed the victim to come needed to man up and take responsibility for his well being knowing he was limited in experience and ability, not incapable. That is the reckless indifference, in my opinion.
 
You need to work on your vocabulary. If you thought it was fiction YOU doubted it's veracity. I took it at face value.... very low face value but I never questioned whether it was pure fiction. I still don't because I don't care. What I care about is hand wringing do gooders screwing things up for other people.

This is classic...
[ QUOTE ]
"If I had badgered someone to go on a trip where the risks were seen by that person to exceed their abilities then it would be my responsibility to prepare them with foreknowledge of those risks and what preparations should be taken. Not recommending proper footwear for the climb???? What's with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you badger someone into a rock climbing trip? Wait, first you MAKE them smoke pot and then they're so numb in the head you can have them do whatever you will them too, right?

Lapsed responsibility? Yes, on the part of the victim, not the 'leader' of the party. There WAS no leader! Three guys out to have a good time, something went very wrong, one is now dead... that happens... that's one of the ATTRACTIONS of dangerous activities... the outcome isn't guaranteed.

You've obviously never been part of a band of guys that goes off and does dangerous stuff together. Even the concept that one of the two living guys is responsible for the victim failing to secure himself to the rope is... well, it's just stupid. Sorry, no better way to put that.

Do you actually think for yourself or do you constantly expect your heroes to tell you how to behave? You need to put safety and skill and knowledge in perspective. There's a big picture that you simply don't see. Life is not safe, it's not supposed to be.

My last statement was unrelated to the article but rather your last little snit trying to have the last word even after I handed it to you on a silver platter. It's a reference to something we call brown nosing.

You need a hobby or a job or a puppy or something.
 
ya know at times the truth can be nestled comfortably in the middle.!
IE, blinky I believe we are way too letigous and willing to blame others. WE need to accept responsability for our own actions.Your whole meaningless death point a while back was borderline brilliant. People make way too many decisions based on emotion....and not rational thought!!! BUT, If I invite a Non- climber type person......should I not step up and be accountable for their safety? just playing devils advocate here?! Not always black and white.I happen to think there is validity in both arguements?
 
There are many forms of leadership.

MASH is a wonderful metaphor for good leadership. Who would want Frank Burns in charge all of the time? Could Potter or any of the other COs done their job without Radar to support them? Hawkeye did not do well when he was in a CO position but did function perfectly at his level.

In an informal group the leadership takes on an informal structure. In the story the basis for the climb was to have fun. Fun was more important than safety it seems. Setting aside pot smoking as an issue in the story, it seems like good judgment was left behind. I have yet to talk with anyone who doesn't agree that safety and going home walking isn't the most important base to come from. Agreed, risk and safety are fluid. We still put handrails on stairs and ramps for the users, or conditions, that require them.

At some time in everyone's life they had a 'little brother/sister' that wanted to go out with the biguns. But, that would have been dangerous because they weren't able to deal with the risks/safety and they were told to stay home. A trike is just not gonna cut the mustard on a bike ride. So, we learned leadership and risk/safety management early on. Sure, it hurts to have to stay at home and ride the trike up and down the driveway. the alternative??? The group of bike riders leaves the triker behind or some other poor decision is made. How bad would you feel if you let a triker come along, they got seperated, and were injured/killed? Play THAT 'regret tape' over in your head for your lifetime.

Like I've said before, I've put gear out of service because it was trash and gotten some heavy grief because of that. This is in the workplace not a TCC...but it is amazing to see some of the trash that was used 'yesterday' being brought to the TCC. And...the looks of 'What..??? I can't use this-boogered rope, screwgate biner, throwline for a chinstrap on my helmet, sunglasses'...and these examples are examples from just the last two comps. All of these climbers didn't have someone else around them to tell them NO. Could any of those others be accused of 'reckless indifference'? I bet they could.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think both of you guys are very reasonable people.



SZ

[/ QUOTE ]
It figures that when I'm driven to the point of being unreasonable... you would think I'm reasonable.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[..] BUT, If I invite a Non- climber type person......should I not step up and be accountable for their safety? just playing devils advocate here?! Not always black and white.I happen to think there is validity in both arguements?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true, a non-climber on one of their first few climbs; a neophyte climber faced with a big step up... definitely that person will be looking for guidance and the more experienced climbers should be open to giving it and backing down as a group if the new person asks to do something easier.

Regardless of whether the report was true or not, it did state that they had done the route two or three times before... the same route, and free solo. To say he was badgered or coerced by the same guys he sat around and got high with doesn't make sense.

I still don't see how you could badger someone up a route. I've been pushed, gotten in over my head, been really, really scared... but it was always my decision to make. Nobody can MAKE me climb a tree or face or anything... I have have to choose to do it.

Stepping up and asking someone about their gear, their shoes, their behavior is good leadership... but it's not required of anyone unless they've been specifically chosen as a leader with complete authority over the party.

When I climbed a lot, the 'leader' was the guy on the pointy end of the rope. If we swung leads the leader changed every 100' or so.

I take your point and I'm glad you brought it up because that is a different situation.
 
Tom, I think you can accuse anyone who chooses to remain silent of indifference... reckless kind of depends on how unsafe the practice happens to be.

I'm not saying no one should speak up, everyone should... but that's the limit unless you actually have an official responsibility for safety. You can lead without being legally responsible, just like you say, it develops naturally within the group. I don't tell my friends they can't climb with me though... I may choose to not climb with them if I think I'll be over my head but it's not my privilege to govern what other people do.

This wasn't a trike/bicycle situation. He'd done the route before, apparently more than once. He knew what he was getting into. I can see him getting too stoned and having cold feet before starting up then steadily losing his confidence while his friends pushed him to keep going... not great judgment on anybody's part, at least they did rope up because he wanted to... but HE failed to clip in securely. They may not have even see him do it if he was last man up.

Truly it's a regrettable thing... but it was HIS fault. That's my point, we can't as a society, hold people responsible for other people's bad decisions, nor can we insist on regulating how people have their fun as long as they don't hurt others in the process.

I tried to appease treehumper with my 'back up further' post and he took advantage of it with a petty, 'last word' kind of post. It was a cheap shot. That pisses me off. I always regret getting in someone's face and usually apologize when I do, but not this time. I did my part and he tried to exploit it. Screw that. I figured I was done with this thread until he played the brown nose card.

Had it been funny things would be different.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think both of you guys are very reasonable people.



SZ

[/ QUOTE ]
It figures that when I'm driven to the point of being unreasonable... you would think I'm reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am a square peg in a round hole, a man who thrives on contradictions.


SZ
 
[ QUOTE ]
the Guy who trained me wasn't such a person and showed remarkable patience while I unfouled ropes and chased 3/4" water sprouts, etc. He gave me a lot of grief on the ground but never while I was climbing.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah I remember your response--"everything's a flubup to you, man!"

I ain't done witchoo yit bwah!!

Don't aggravate a climber.

You need to show some patience with th tho...touchy touchy.

Re reckless indifference, obesity is right up there. I cringe when I see 230+ pounders tie into tips and lean. I cringe more when they fail to reach the tips and try to prune from the middle of the tree. This seldom works.

Trying to derail this thread back to trees...

Nice avatar Stephan!!
 
blinky have you finally read the whole article? it has so many holes in it that a $50 defense lawyer could get him off. fake or not every climber has a choice to go or not go and to not go because of a confidence issue may get them fired, but they probably didn't need that job anyway. on the cliff your supposed to push your limits thats why your there. when we go climbing my partners and i always check each others knots, especially multi pitch. we also haze the crap out of each other. yelling, calling names, not paying out slack and on occasion we free solo, and usually smoke a big fat joint at the top then do the dangerous stuff.... rappelling. more climbers die rappelling than any other way. the trouble is it seems so easy; complacency and fatigue take over and bad decisions are made i think that is the point of the article. the argument is wether or not the "lead climber" was really a leader; no he was not responsible for the guys life legally, but socially he should have been. macho bravado has its place during a climb, but you still should have the best interest of the group at heart, including the lowest weakest member. that mentality and reason is what separates us from us from the rest of the herd animals.
 
You make an important point, socially the alpha guy should be responsible and so should the rest of the party and that's pretty key. It ties into Paul and Tom's point about new guys.

That much we always did. If somebody showed up for a friction route in edge shoes we'd keep them in the middle, same with guys who were not in condition, same with young guys who can make mistakes you never thought of.

I had a young guy (13) toss me the end of the rope at the top of the last pitch of a ~500' climb on the Carolina Wall... that would be HIS end... so then I had BOTH ends... and the middle... with no belayer... and it had gotten dark. I had to free solo the top pitch in the dark, fortunately it was easy. You just can't plan for that.

It was MY responsibility even though he had the sharp end. I didn't teach him the double check discipline well enough... plus I think he was just really excited. Social responsibility is something I think we all have for each other and if we were better at it, the human condition would be much better than it is. In that respect, the lead climber failed the victim... and if he's any kind of person at all, he'll feel it for the balance of his life.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom