question about cabling

[dspacio]

we had one of those windstorms last december, when i Knew "someone is about to call about a tree", and sure enough a friends neighbor called about a tall pine next to their house. a smaller one split and fell a bit further off and they were concerned.

I have helped from the ground with a lot of cabling but it was my first go in the tree. I did what @evo recommended, gave a low price so I would get the practice (and hope to talk up more work). I was interested in the rope Treeguard so got that all figured out. The tree actually split a few times, so i held the outward splits toward center and then back away from the house. None of the splits aim toward the house and it's the healthiest tree in their yard.

They didn't call about cabling, they just called out of concern that this thing would fall on their daughter. I suggested the cabling, and also removed 3 other marginal trees nearby, to give the big pine room to grow away from their house.

The Treeguard thing rings my bell as it's not piercing the tree. Just burly slings that get spliced to each other. Each sling can accept two connections. I only got about 3/5 of the way above the split, I could not throw my bag high enough! I was working at my TIP, with about 10 feet between each lead, it was waaay harder than I anticipated. Would have made a great Two Person Job. The hollow braid splice is easy, but making the second one, aiming to hold the connection tight while performing the splice was hard to do.

It was right around the winter solstice so I was working til sundown, dropping out with just enough light to pack up gear. I had a chosen splicing kit with me, it was fun to gear up with a different set of tools.

I recommend that Tree Guard line. got it from Wesspur. Future arborists won't have to work around a broken snakey wire when they remove these guys later. Especially for the pines.. that move and dance so much, it's great to think of how much more play comes with a rope than a cable.

 

[SomethingWitty]

we had one of those windstorms last december, when i Knew "someone is about to call about a tree", and sure enough a friends neighbor called about a tall pine next to their house. a smaller one split and fell a bit further off and they were concerned.

I have helped from the ground with a lot of cabling but it was my first go in the tree. I did what @evo recommended, gave a low price so I would get the practice (and hope to talk up more work). I was interested in the rope Treeguard so got that all figured out. The tree actually split a few times, so i held the outward splits toward center and then back away from the house. None of the splits aim toward the house and it's the healthiest tree in their yard.

They didn't call about cabling, they just called out of concern that this thing would fall on their daughter. I suggested the cabling, and also removed 3 other marginal trees nearby, to give the big pine room to grow away from their house.

The Treeguard thing rings my bell as it's not piercing the tree. Just burly slings that get spliced to each other. Each sling can accept two connections. I only got about 3/5 of the way above the split, I could not throw my bag high enough! I was working at my TIP, with about 10 feet between each lead, it was waaay harder than I anticipated. Would have made a great Two Person Job. The hollow braid splice is easy, but making the second one, aiming to hold the connection tight while performing the splice was hard to do.

It was right around the winter solstice so I was working til sundown, dropping out with just enough light to pack up gear. I had a chosen splicing kit with me, it was fun to gear up with a different set of tools.

I recommend that Tree Guard line. got it from Wesspur. Future arborists won't have to work around a broken snakey wire when they remove these guys later. Especially for the pines.. that move and dance so much, it's great to think of how much more play comes with a rope than a cable.

Do you have pictures?

 

[evo]

we had one of those windstorms last december, when i Knew "someone is about to call about a tree", and sure enough a friends neighbor called about a tall pine next to their house. a smaller one split and fell a bit further off and they were concerned.

I have helped from the ground with a lot of cabling but it was my first go in the tree. I did what @evo recommended, gave a low price so I would get the practice (and hope to talk up more work). I was interested in the rope Treeguard so got that all figured out. The tree actually split a few times, so i held the outward splits toward center and then back away from the house. None of the splits aim toward the house and it's the healthiest tree in their yard.

They didn't call about cabling, they just called out of concern that this thing would fall on their daughter. I suggested the cabling, and also removed 3 other marginal trees nearby, to give the big pine room to grow away from their house.

The Treeguard thing rings my bell as it's not piercing the tree. Just burly slings that get spliced to each other. Each sling can accept two connections. I only got about 3/5 of the way above the split, I could not throw my bag high enough! I was working at my TIP, with about 10 feet between each lead, it was waaay harder than I anticipated. Would have made a great Two Person Job. The hollow braid splice is easy, but making the second one, aiming to hold the connection tight while performing the splice was hard to do.

It was right around the winter solstice so I was working til sundown, dropping out with just enough light to pack up gear. I had a chosen splicing kit with me, it was fun to gear up with a different set of tools.

I recommend that Tree Guard line. got it from Wesspur. Future arborists won't have to work around a broken snakey wire when they remove these guys later. Especially for the pines.. that move and dance so much, it's great to think of how much more play comes with a rope than a cable.

Pictures or it didn’t happen.

Pro tip. On your second splice, cut your rope (cable long) and waste some. Pull the rope to where it needs to be in tension through the second sling and mark the middle of the eye with tape. Now slacken the rope and splice yourself a big fat eye with slack though each pass and the burry.
Next take a Prussic cord and a secondary lanyard or pretty much anyhing you can make a z rig out of. Place it as far outside the splice as you can and anchor to the sling. Tension up and start working the slack

Remember dynamic needs to be a little slack and just under taught. Steel just taught and not tight (most of the time)

Personally I go with steel if there is a active crack or split. I think it is in the cobra literature that you are not suppose to use it with on a tree with a defect, just to support over extended limbs.

 

[SomethingWitty]

Pictures or it didn’t happen.

Pro tip. On your second splice, cut your rope (cable long) and waste some. Pull the rope to where it needs to be in tension through the second sling and mark the middle of the eye with tape. Now slacken the rope and splice yourself a big fat eye with slack though each pass and the burry.
Next take a Prussic cord and a secondary lanyard or pretty much anyhing you can make a z rig out of. Place it as far outside the splice as you can and anchor to the sling. Tension up and start working the slack

Remember dynamic needs to be a little slack and just under taught. Steel just taught and not tight (most of the time)

Personally I go with steel if there is a active crack or split. I think it is in the cobra literature that you are not suppose to use it with on a tree with a defect, just to support over extended limbs.

That last part was what I was really curious about. It sounds like dynamic cabling was installed where something static would have been optimal.

 

[Serf Life]

The tree guard system also says one can use their straps and install cable between them for a non-invasive static setup. We have one like that planned for a decrepit sugar maple.

 

[dspacio]

Do you have pictures?

I didn't get pictures! I remember bringing my phone up, but it turned to be an all-consuming process and I didn't come down with any.

thanks for the tip @evo , that sounds like a great plan.

Yes, this tree didn't have any defect, just some marginal looking unions (elongated bark ridge, possible included bark). With how much sway pines have, I felt like that bit of give would be good. They offer two kinda ropes, of different maximum elongation, I went with the more static one.

 

[Jem4417]

2/3 seems a little high especially if it’s to get bigger I agree with tom on bolts reduction and or dynamic cable. Steel cable at two thirds is gonna restrict the growth way too much

 

[evo]

I didn't get pictures! I remember bringing my phone up, but it turned to be an all-consuming process and I didn't come down with any.

thanks for the tip @evo , that sounds like a great plan.

Yes, this tree didn't have any defect, just some marginal looking unions (elongated bark ridge, possible included bark). With how much sway pines have, I felt like that bit of give would be good. They offer two kinda ropes, of different maximum elongation, I went with the more static one.

Sounds good then... The static dynamic vs high elongation is often a moot point in a conifer (depending on the form). Stretch or elongation is often measured at x % of breaking strength per 100'. Often when cabling conifers there isn't enough room between the stems to do standard splices or if there is it's about 10'.. so in reality the difference in elongation is just a few inches if that.
In very short runs I've been known to splice a endless loop through the slings. I've even use long slings and joined the two stems with a shackle.
I do really like the versatility of Wesspurs dynamic cabling. You can even use steel cable non invasively..

 

[evo]

2/3 seems a little high especially if it’s to get bigger I agree with tom on bolts reduction and or dynamic cable. Steel cable at two thirds is gonna restrict the growth way too much

It all depends on the tree... And even more so with conifers. I've had 2/3rd be 20-30" stems and I've had it at 4" stems.
I'm strongly opposed to height reduction on any conifer. Sometimes reducing one stem and leaving the other. Most of the time height reduction reaction is just like topping and creates future problems/a never ending maintenance nightmare.
A topped (or height reduced) doug fir will grow 40' + limbs (which tend to pop off), create hazard beam failures in regenerated tops, as well as just creating future co-dominate stems to fail.

 

[Tree-Taylor]

I stumbled upon this thread and am a little shocked to read some of these statements. When I describe cabling systems I think in terms of steel and synthetic. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, however, synthetic can be installed in both a dynamic and static configuration. Yes, synthetic line has stretch but removing slack and stretch is part of the static installation process. Dynamic and static applications are two separate installation practices to achieve different outcomes.

For me the main selling feature for synthetic is it's non-invasive nature. Why would anyone want to drill into a tree they want to preserve? The main downside to a synthetic cable is it's limited lifespan.

There are many more points that can be made both for or against but I just wanted to clear up what I felt were misconceptions about this type of product.

 

[southsoundtree]

...

Why would anyone want to drill into a tree they want to preserve? The main downside to a synthetic cable is it's limited lifespan.

...

Because of long- lasting, Rodent-proof, non-girdling system works well on good compartmentalizers.

 

[colb]

I stumbled upon this thread and am a little shocked to read some of these statements. When I describe cabling systems I think in terms of steel and synthetic. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, however, synthetic can be installed in both a dynamic and static configuration. Yes, synthetic line has stretch but removing slack and stretch is part of the static installation process. Dynamic and static applications are two separate installation practices to achieve different outcomes.

For me the main selling feature for synthetic is it's non-invasive nature. Why would anyone want to drill into a tree they want to preserve? The main downside to a synthetic cable is it's limited lifespan.

There are many more points that can be made both for or against but I just wanted to clear up what I felt were misconceptions about this type of product.

With synthetic cabling, the written manufacturer specification can limit how static or dynamic the installation may be. If it's installed outside of specification, the installer is liable, even though it may make sense to install it that way. So it is not a given that synthetic cabling can be installed slack, taut, or tight.

Synthetic cabling may be very invasive if the arborist does not have the willingness and/or availability to monitor, adjust, and/or replace it. Since, intrinsically, the arborist is hardly ever also the tree manager, we ultimately do not have the agency to determine whether synthetic cabling becomes invasive and are usually dependent on a non-professional for that. Evaluating the tree manager's disposition - their likelihood of moving, their personality, etc. - is by far the most critical aspect of deciding whether to install synthetic cabling. We cannot necessarily cable synthetics extra loose with a bigger eye, either, because of the splicing specifications that typically include an angle where the two sections of the spliced eye meet.

Imo, the complexities of each tree in its environment plus the physics and manufacturer specifications of the synthetic cabling, plus the ANSI standard, are bottomless when considered together and don't lend themselves to generalizations. I get a little shocked at some of these statements too, but my own practices in cabling continue to change and I expect I'll have a more nuanced opinion further down the road, or a nuisance opinion... It's important for me to listen to everyone here for the aspects of their experience that may improve my work. After all, one of us is neither as bright or as dumb as all of us

 

[Tree-Taylor]

Absolutely they work well on specific species, and they are very long lasting if installed at their final resting spot in a mature tree. However that leaves a lot of grey area. If the tree is not at maturity the cable should never be viewed as permanent. And depending on your location you may have an abundance of appropriate species or very few. Systems need to be inspected routinely and adjusted when necessary to prevent girdling. My experience, yours may differ.

Squirrels can be dicks. I've had to replace a few systems over their lifetime due to animal damage but it's been pretty rare. Again, that may be a bigger issue where you're from.

I see advantages and disadvantages in both systems, however I think we can all agree that a properly installed support system is better than nothing.

 

[Tree-Taylor]

With synthetic cabling, the written manufacturer specification can limit how static or dynamic the installation may be. If it's installed outside of specification, the installer is liable, even though it may make sense to install it that way. So it is not a given that synthetic cabling can be installed slack, taut, or tight.

Synthetic cabling may be very invasive if the arborist does not have the willingness and/or availability to monitor, adjust, and/or replace it. Since, intrinsically, the arborist is hardly ever also the tree manager, we ultimately do not have the agency to determine whether synthetic cabling becomes invasive and are usually dependent on a non-professional for that. Evaluating the tree manager's disposition - their likelihood of moving, their personality, etc. - is by far the most critical aspect of deciding whether to install synthetic cabling. We cannot necessarily cable synthetics extra loose with a bigger eye, either, because of the splicing specifications that typically include an angle where the two sections of the spliced eye meet.

Imo, the complexities of each tree in its environment plus the physics and manufacturer specifications of the synthetic cabling, plus the ANSI standard, are bottomless when considered together and don't lend themselves to generalizations. I get a little shocked at some of these statements too, but my own practices in cabling continue to change and I expect I'll have a more nuanced opinion further down the road, or a nuisance opinion... It's important for me to listen to everyone here for the aspects of their experience that may improve my work. After all, one of us is neither as bright or as dumb as all of us

Liability for the system should be written into your contract, along with the obligation to have the system inspected by a competent individual at specific intervals. Once a system is installed according to the manufacturers recommendations, the client is solely responsible for having the system inspected and maintained. Neither synthetic nor steel should be considered one and done and the client should be informed.

Opinions are good! I was just surprised by the consensus on steel cables. Maybe I was misinterpreting the discussion.

 

[colb]

I was just surprised by the consensus on steel cables.

I think that many of us who care about trees want to avoid drilling them and depriving them of their own strength through reliance on a taut installation. I have to take a step back sometimes and think about whether a synthetic system is really going to work out. Have you been installing cables for a dozen years or more? I'm not to that point yet and I do not have contact with 100% of the clients who have synthetic installations. It's a big issue and most clients do not have long range thought processes. Even though I write into my estimate that the cable is a maintenance item, I do not contractually obligate my clients to a maintenance and replacement regimen - most clients would not want their sovereignty impinged upon to that degree (and I would not either). EHS systems are better if I am not certain I'll be back... This alone makes them a very serious contender for every installation and may even point to close to 100% of installs needing to be EHS because of cultural practices. While I prefer the idea of synthetic and it can be better in specific circumstances, I take EHS just as seriously.

 

[Tree-Taylor]

I do not have contact with 100% of the clients who have synthetic installations. It's a big issue and most clients do not have long range thought processes. Even though I write into my estimate that the cable is a maintenance item, I do not contractually obligate my clients to a maintenance and replacement regimen - most clients would not want their sovereignty impinged upon to that degree (and I would not either). EHS systems are better if I am not certain I'll be back...

I understand your concerns. I would never require my clients to commit to a maintenance or replacement program. I inform them of the manufacturers recommendations which is to have the system routinely inspected and that the system has a lifespan. I even explain that squirrels are dicks. I also present the idea of a steel cable as an alternative when appropriate. At the end of the day the clients need to make an educated decision based on their risk tolerance and their personal situation.

*edit*
It's 16 yrs this season for me.

 

[evo]

Dynamic cables are a arm sling, steel is a cast. Ok so the analogy is far from perfect, but I’ve ripped out more improperly or failed dynamic systems than I have steel. Two tools in the tool box, experienced arborists know what tool to use.
Steel is pretty bomb proof in good trees.

 

[Tree-Taylor]

I've taken out plenty myself. It's all gotta be installed properly and that involves building a system suitable for possible loads over an 8-12 year period.

 

[evo]

I've taken out plenty myself. It's all gotta be installed properly and that involves building a system suitable for possible loads over an 8-12 year period.

8-12 year is way too long for a dynamic system. Show me the manufacturer specs that say anything longer than 8 years

 

[Tree-Taylor]

8-12 year is way too long for a dynamic system. Show me the manufacturer specs that say anything longer than 8 years