prusik knots: traditional, french, etc.

O

okietreedude1

Location
Enid, Ok
This past weekend at the MWTCC, the discussion came up between myself and another professional about the prusik knot. He made the comment that the prusik knot is designed and intended to not have your hands placed above it, as so in footlock climbing, such that slipping would cause the climber to pull the knot down and fall. This discussion came up at lunch at the arial rescue. Later after the pm groups finished, I brought it to his attention that almost all of the climbers in this event had asscended the tree in the traditional body thrust method and many climb with french prusiks. I went on to point out that those guys were climbing with thier hands above the prusik by making 2-3 thrusts and then pulling the slack out.

Is this a safe method of climbing? If the climber were to lose his grip on the rope, would the potential to fall be as great as though he were footlocking with his hands above the prusik? If so, what is the acceptable method to body thrust with a french prusik?

The other question that came up concerned this type of climbing at a TCC, in particular the International. Would this be considered 'safe climbing' or warrant the issuance of a warning?
 
I don't have the ITCC rules right in front of me but I do believe that putting hands above the hitch is grounds for a DQ. At times, the judges may let one go with only a warning. When I instruct our judges, I tell them that there are no warnings, one and DQ.

Pretty harsh but the TCC is supposed to be a time to teach proper techniques. If less than adequate procedures aren't corrected, climbers will continue to use them. This can put climbers at risk.

You're right, putting hands above the hitch can cause a ground fall. This is the case with most climbing hitches. The prusik has an especially bad reputation of slipping to failure rather than slip-grabbing like other hitches.

Tom
 
Hands above a prusik while footlocking is grounds for a DQ. Now bodythrusting and general climbing my hands of course are most often above my friction hitch. Bodythrusting up 2 or 3 pulls then tending your slack has always been accepted.
 
Apples and oranges

Of course it is ok to but your hands above your hitch. That is how you move it to release rope, etc. The difference with a prusik is that it is for ASCENDING only you are not to decend with a prusik.

I had always heard that hand above was a big no no - never really got it either. M.Bridge gave a demonstration of why it is a no no - a demonsrtation is worth a thousand words and at least a hundred on line posts.......

I don't know it for a fact, but I am sure it wouldn't be such a no no if people hadn't been hurt/killed doing it.
 
I think that the thing that was missed from the original posting is that the "rules of the prusik" have nothing to do with the climbing hitch (blake's, tautline, prusik (french, swaebisch, etc) klemheist, etc) and everything to do with the system.

The system that okietreedude1 asked about is body thrusting (a dynamic climbing system because both parts of the rope are moving). There is no problem putting your hand(s) on or above the climbing hitch because that is how the system works, we would all be stuck up in trees (not necessarily a bad thing) if we didn't put our hand on our climbing hitch and descend on it.

In a static climbing system (both parts, or in SRT one part, NOT moving) such as when footlocking both parts of the rope the friction hitch is there in case of a fall. In the case of a fall or slip a human's reaction is to grab. If one were to slip while there hand was on or above the prusik (or klemheist, blake's hitch, tautline, etc) chances are very good that the hand would grip the hitch and not allow it to grab the rope. Burned hands, a sharp drop or an express ride to the ground would be the result.

The main point is that these are two distinctly different systems (weight distribution, forces involved, etc) and a climbing hitch (no matter which one it is) will react differently in each system.

I would like to see these "rules of the prusik" changed to "rules of any climbing hitch used in a static climbing sytem"… not as catchy but it gets the point across.
 
"Bodythrusting up 2 or 3 pulls then tending your slack has always been accepted."
I'm not gonna argue about which deviations from 100% safety an experienced climber might accept during a normal working day (who of us have not occasionally climbed above the anchor point without a fall protection system?), but TCCs are there to set the standard and as a judge I would greatly penalize this way of body-thrusting as it is obviously not a safe practice.

Sergio
 
Sergio is right on track. Arbos climb in a work positioning climbing system not a fall arrest system. The considerations for choosing gear in a WP is different than a FA. If a climber falls while in a WP system injury is more likely. Not a good procedure to condone at any time. If it isn't curtailed with an explanation at the TCC, the climbers will think that this is an OK system. The problem si, too many climbers learned this practice from more experienced climbers and some "instructors" are teaching this practice.

Arbos need to take the time to understand fall factors more. They would be able to understand why we shouldn't be climbing with slack in our systems.

Tom
 
When you say French prussik are you talking about the Kleimheist,Massard,VT,or XT?
The question as I see it is more which system you are putting your hands above.For Example the generally used knot for footlock is the Kleimheist this by its configuration is a one way knot.If when loaded is released(Which takes alot of force) will very often not grip again,mainly because all the weight is only hanging on one point.For this reason the hands should never go above the knot.The masshard and VT on the other hand are used more on the rope when climbing in the normal fashion.They do not grip the rope so tightly as the Kleimheist because the load is halfed by the fact you are hanging in both sides of the rope.When the knot is released the direction the rope pulls the top of the Knot is up and at the same time your weight pulls the bottom of the knot down thereby making it regrip the rope again.To sum up when a french prussik is used on a climbing line for moving in the tree providing it is well dressed and more importantly made correctly and as long as you don't hold onto the prussik It will lock again.A Kleimheist attached to a single point for footlocking will not. Catch you later Didj
 
To sum up the original question, is it Okay to place your hands above a V.T. french prusik? Many of the climbers I saw use this at the local TCC body thrusted 2-3 thrusts with thier hands above it and then pulled out the slack. I know with the traditional 'footlocking' prusik, that is a big NO-NO as if you slipped, you may hit the ground before you knew it.

I was also wondering if there were anything in the ISA rules about this style at a TCC?
 
Hi Dave ,As far as ISA rerulations on this subject go they are a bit fague in my opinion.Most of the the top Europeon climbers are using hands above the prussik technique when moving in off branches or asscending back up their workline.When high enough off the ground the ropes weight tenders the slack on a VT or machard but when you are lower down and have to tender it yourself in the european TTC's they allow two or three pulls before pulling the slack through anymore and after a warning they will generally be DQ. Ben Strasser uses this style of climbing and they have had no problems with him yet in the world championships as far as i know so it must be Ok .... catch you later
 
"To sum up the original question, is it Okay to place your hands above a V.T. french prusik?"

Check out my post on June 18th, it got blown off but I think that it addresses the question. The type of climbing hitch is irrelevant, the climbing system makes all the difference.

I worked with a guy that would footlock a doubled rope and he used a Blake's hitch tied with a long split tail. Putting his hands on/above the hitch in this situation would be bad and should not be done. However, when he was actually in the tree and tying into his work positioning system he would still use a Blake's hitch, in this system it is perfectly fine to put your hands on or above the hitch… Same hitch just a different system with different dynamics.

I agree with Tom and Sergio that making a few pulls and then advancing the hitch is not good, keeping slack out of a climbing system is critical. That is not a technique that I use.
 
It has always been my understanding that a rope climber must drill out of themselves the natural instinctive reaction to grab at the knot or device holding them up. Somehow at any slip etc., i am relaxed internally visualizing just how i am tied in, and face the tree.

i think that certainly the forgiveness in a DdRT and SRT are diffrent 2/1 vs. 1/1; and the way the device grabs at full weight too (vs. 1/2 weight - friction).

When going straight up, i try to grab below the knot, but it can be easier otherwise, but with more care.

When reeling in from a limb walk, sometimes i'll wrap both lines around one hand with the other. The more loops, the stronger the grip, i keep them loose on my hand; and figure i could well hold myself up like that as the loose loops wouldn't choke my hand, i'm walking horizontally-so have the option of sitting down on limb in a pinch. Then take up slack from loops at some secure point of rest. i do this so i can move faster than drawing on a 2/1 system, and the inertia of heading in one direction quicker helps stabilize me. i think!

Or something like that!
 
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