Pruning older and neglected apple trees

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Participating member
Location
Ontario, Canada
This is one thing that I find very frustrating, (It’s almost a pet peeve!) when customers ask me to magically turn their 80 year old apple tree into a very healthy, young, productive, orchard quality tree. It’s as if they expect me to turn back the hands of Time! So I was wondering if anyone has any tips or video links or information on best practises for pruning old, apple trees, or other fruit trees…

In other words, I often get asked to prune old apple trees in order to produce more high-quality high-yielding apples trees, but I’m not sure that’s possible given the Trees maturity can anyone please advise?
 
Tell them it's a process, you can't do it in one pruning in one season. For older apples its often more about keeping the tree from destroying itself first (taking weight off) and a ton of deadwooding before you even get to thinking about promoting future healthy growth.

My pet peeve is people trying to prune yard apple trees like they're an orchard tree, they're not production trees. It should be more about the health of the tree and aesthetics IMO. Orchard trees live a hard life, pruned too hard constantly, they are disposable and quickly replaced in commercial orchards.
-AJ
 
Forty-four (44) years ago I to a small property w/ numerous, very neglected fruit trees & grapes.
I got some very good advice, and home visits, brochures, etc from my local Ohio Ag Service.
(I don't think they do as many home visits any more. More effort to farms & production.)
I took 3 years to bring the apple trees back to good form.
Try to decide on the most appropriate form to open up the tree; e.g. open-center, or spiral, etc.
Back then, I was able to purchase various pesticides, w/o an applicators license.
Let the home owner know, it's lots of work, $$$ for pesticide application, etc. (after rain, need to re-apply, etc)

I had lots of fun w/ the project.
One year I put up 300 gal of cider; stored in a large basement horizontal freezer for several years,
Every time I would go visit someone (dinner, etc) I would take a gallon ! :)
 
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I suggest not doing what is shown in that video.

The absolute first thing is to decide on the form. Open center or central leader. On anything in the ground more than 3-5 years this has already been decided.

For the first cycle make your larger cuts first and keep those cuts in proportion to the tree. How many chainsaw cuts would you make on a 20’-30’ Japanese maple? No different with a fruit tree

Many of the old varieties get quite large, gravistein wants to be 40’+ and it’s a pipe dream to make the tree short. We have all heard of folks who want their tree dwarfed by pruning, and apples/fruit trees are no different. If they want a small tree then tell them to plant a dwarf/semi dwarf

MAINTAIN a full canopy, each pruning cycle ignore the little stuff and focus on thinning, make your big cuts first. Avoid making large cuts near old large cuts that haven’t sealed and are decayed. As these likely are feeding wound/callus wood.

I work many trees that are well beyond hollow as a drum where you can put your hard hat inside cavities. The balance is taking enough load off, but keeping enough green for the tree to put more wood on than what is decayed.

Don’t be afraid of heading cuts on wood that is about 1” diameter.

Reduce large water sprouts vs removal. It’s an ebb flow thing, apples are a different animal where they send sprouts up, takes a couple of years then they flower and fruit. The weigh then pulls them down that then sends up new sprouts as the cycle repeats. Encourage this. Also long whip stouts can be cut in half to stimulate branching. The following year thin the hydra, and pick one that assumes vertical to retain.

Many varieties are bi-annual bearing, so don’t expect heavy fruit every year

I tell my clients if they want production apples, it will take about 4 visits per year and that they have to thin the fruit to about 1 apple per 6” with a minimum of 6 leaves per apple. Never has anyone bitten that fruit! I do though have a couple of real production orchards at ciderys
 
Evo knows! For references there is lots online through various cooperative extensions (you’ll get some conflicting recommendations but that is true regardless). I enjoy the Michael Philips books like Apple Grower and The Holistic Orchard, but also use Storey’s Guide and a few others as well. Try to sell a one dormant prune and one summer prune per year for the first 3 yrs at least. Harp on soil/ground-cover mgmt.
 
I suggest not doing what is shown in that video.

The absolute first thing is to decide on the form. Open center or central leader. On anything in the ground more than 3-5 years this has already been decided.

For the first cycle make your larger cuts first and keep those cuts in proportion to the tree. How many chainsaw cuts would you make on a 20’-30’ Japanese maple? No different with a fruit tree

Many of the old varieties get quite large, gravistein wants to be 40’+ and it’s a pipe dream to make the tree short. We have all heard of folks who want their tree dwarfed by pruning, and apples/fruit trees are no different. If they want a small tree then tell them to plant a dwarf/semi dwarf

MAINTAIN a full canopy, each pruning cycle ignore the little stuff and focus on thinning, make your big cuts first. Avoid making large cuts near old large cuts that haven’t sealed and are decayed. As these likely are feeding wound/callus wood.

I work many trees that are well beyond hollow as a drum where you can put your hard hat inside cavities. The balance is taking enough load off, but keeping enough green for the tree to put more wood on than what is decayed.

Don’t be afraid of heading cuts on wood that is about 1” diameter.

Reduce large water sprouts vs removal. It’s an ebb flow thing, apples are a different animal where they send sprouts up, takes a couple of years then they flower and fruit. The weigh then pulls them down that then sends up new sprouts as the cycle repeats. Encourage this. Also long whip stouts can be cut in half to stimulate branching. The following year thin the hydra, and pick one that assumes vertical to retain.

Many varieties are bi-annual bearing, so don’t expect heavy fruit every year

I tell my clients if they want production apples, it will take about 4 visits per year and that they have to thin the fruit to about 1 apple per 6” with a minimum of 6 leaves per apple. Never has anyone bitten that fruit! I do though have a couple of real production orchards at ciderys
Wow! Lots of great info thank you evo
 
Evo knows! For references there is lots online through various cooperative extensions (you’ll get some conflicting recommendations but that is true regardless). I enjoy the Michael Philips books like Apple Grower and The Holistic Orchard, but also use Storey’s Guide and a few others as well. Try to sell a one dormant prune and one summer prune per year for the first 3 yrs at least. Harp on soil/ground-cover mgmt.
Thanks!
 
Pnw400 publication from Washington and Oregon cooperative extension service

 
Exactly moss and evo- yard Apple trees aren't orchard trees, balance form/aesthetics with fruit-I personally lean strongly towards pruning for form.
 
After explaining the time and money commitment that a client is going to take on I’d suggest that homeowners considered the fruit tree as a landscape tree and go to a local ‘You Pick’ orchard for their fruit. Much cheaper and practical

Many times I’d get calls from new homeowners with fruit trees infected with some systemic disease. They can be treated but there is always the cost and time ratio. Keeping the tree healthy and then all of the work to protect the fruit too.

Most clients appreciated my frankness. The reality is, as others said here, lots of work and money.

If trees were diseased systematically I had a process that I called ‘Amputation to Death’. Id follow best practices and cut off most, or all if possible, infected wood. Then I’d tell my client to call me if/when the infection killed more.

Over the years this turned out well. Occasionally I get a recall in a couple years. Id see how tres survived when I was on the property or nearby for estimate.

My suggestion was fir them to reallocate their budget to take better care of other trees in the property. I still sold work but it was effective and realistic
 
After explaining the time and money commitment that a client is going to take on I’d suggest that homeowners considered the fruit tree as a landscape tree and go to a local ‘You Pick’ orchard for their fruit. Much cheaper and practical

Many times I’d get calls from new homeowners with fruit trees infected with some systemic disease. They can be treated but there is always the cost and time ratio. Keeping the tree healthy and then all of the work to protect the fruit too.

Most clients appreciated my frankness. The reality is, as others said here, lots of work and money.

If trees were diseased systematically I had a process that I called ‘Amputation to Death’. Id follow best practices and cut off most, or all if possible, infected wood. Then I’d tell my client to call me if/when the infection killed more.

Over the years this turned out well. Occasionally I get a recall in a couple years. Id see how tres survived when I was on the property or nearby for estimate.

My suggestion was fir them to reallocate their budget to take better care of other trees in the property. I still sold work but it was effective and realistic
Ok, thanks Tom! I appreciate the help, I’ve been watching and reading about this topic much of the morning, and wow…lots of conflicting confusing information out there (with some overlap). So im using this help from here to complete the job well!

Thank so much
 
Tell them it's a process, you can't do it in one pruning in one season. For older apples its often more about keeping the tree from destroying itself first (taking weight off) and a ton of deadwooding before you even get to thinking about promoting future healthy growth.
Yes, yes, yes, totally agree

My pet peeve is people trying to prune yard apple trees like they're an orchard tree, they're not production trees. It should be more about the health of the tree and aesthetics IMO. Orchard trees live a hard life, pruned too hard constantly, they are disposable and quickly replaced in commercial orchards.
-AJ
I disagree a little bit. Why can't they be production trees? If it's a big old apple tree in the middle of the circular driveway, then I do think more of an ornamental approach is appropriate. But if it's a few trees in the back corner of the yard and granny wants them shorter so she can spray them with her garden hose sprayer attachment and doesn't need to get on a ladder to pick the apples, I am all about whacking back the fruit trees and giving them an aggressive, commercial orchard style pruning approach over the next few years. I think the balance that we strike should be dictated by the benefits that the tree has potential to offer in its specific context, not just that it's an urban tree and therefore fruit is simply a byproduct of its other functions in the landscape.

OR, in these situations I almost always recommend planting a new tree that we can get started right. I think that is the closest we can get to "magically turn their 80 year old apple tree into a very healthy, young, productive, orchard quality tree." I think it would take about the same amount of time (and certainly less money) for a new tree to grow into what they are envisioning than for us to prune their current tree into what they want. This thread has made me think about buying a bunch of bare root fruit trees, potting them up, and hold them at the yard to give away to customers in this situation so they can reallocate their budget to take better care of other trees in the property like @Tom Dunlap said.

@evo great info. My experience agrees with what you said but I could not have explained it as well!
 
Yes, yes, yes, totally agree


I disagree a little bit. Why can't they be production trees? If it's a big old apple tree in the middle of the circular driveway, then I do think more of an ornamental approach is appropriate. But if it's a few trees in the back corner of the yard and granny wants them shorter so she can spray them with her garden hose sprayer attachment and doesn't need to get on a ladder to pick the apples, I am all about whacking back the fruit trees and giving them an aggressive, commercial orchard style pruning approach over the next few years. I think the balance that we strike should be dictated by the benefits that the tree has potential to offer in its specific context, not just that it's an urban tree and therefore fruit is simply a byproduct of its other functions in the landscape.

OR, in these situations I almost always recommend planting a new tree that we can get started right. I think that is the closest we can get to "magically turn their 80 year old apple tree into a very healthy, young, productive, orchard quality tree." I think it would take about the same amount of time (and certainly less money) for a new tree to grow into what they are envisioning than for us to prune their current tree into what they want. This thread has made me think about buying a bunch of bare root fruit trees, potting them up, and hold them at the yard to give away to customers in this situation so they can reallocate their budget to take better care of other trees in the property like @Tom Dunlap said.

@evo great info. My experience agrees with what you said but I could not have explained it as well!
Yes, I completely agree with the way you quoted me, at the end of the day sometimes if your going for a good healthy well managed producing fruit tree, it might be better just to start over, if your dealing with a poorly managed 80 year old tree
 
Yes, yes, yes, totally agree


I disagree a little bit. Why can't they be production trees? If it's a big old apple tree in the middle of the circular driveway, then I do think more of an ornamental approach is appropriate. But if it's a few trees in the back corner of the yard and granny wants them shorter so she can spray them with her garden hose sprayer attachment and doesn't need to get on a ladder to pick the apples, I am all about whacking back the fruit trees and giving them an aggressive, commercial orchard style pruning approach over the next few years. I think the balance that we strike should be dictated by the benefits that the tree has potential to offer in its specific context, not just that it's an urban tree and therefore fruit is simply a byproduct of its other functions in the landscape.

OR, in these situations I almost always recommend planting a new tree that we can get started right. I think that is the closest we can get to "magically turn their 80 year old apple tree into a very healthy, young, productive, orchard quality tree." I think it would take about the same amount of time (and certainly less money) for a new tree to grow into what they are envisioning than for us to prune their current tree into what they want. This thread has made me think about buying a bunch of bare root fruit trees, potting them up, and hold them at the yard to give away to customers in this situation so they can reallocate their budget to take better care of other trees in the property like @Tom Dunlap said.

@evo great info. My experience agrees with what you said but I could not have explained it as well!
Right on! It’s a choice, pruning for production is not the only way.
 
Yes, I completely agree with the way you quoted me, at the end of the day sometimes if your going for a good healthy well managed producing fruit tree, it might be better just to start over, if your dealing with a poorly managed 80 year old tree
All the fruiting is on young wood.

It will rejuvenate young wood, and fruiting spurs in time. If fruit is the goal, it's possible.

Where is the placement in relation to the house/ view?

What's the shade tree aesthetic value to the homeowner?


Pics?
 
I suggest not doing what is shown in that video.

The absolute first thing is to decide on the form. Open center or central leader. On anything in the ground more than 3-5 years this has already been decided.

For the first cycle make your larger cuts first and keep those cuts in proportion to the tree. How many chainsaw cuts would you make on a 20’-30’ Japanese maple? No different with a fruit tree

Many of the old varieties get quite large, gravistein wants to be 40’+ and it’s a pipe dream to make the tree short. We have all heard of folks who want their tree dwarfed by pruning, and apples/fruit trees are no different. If they want a small tree then tell them to plant a dwarf/semi dwarf

MAINTAIN a full canopy, each pruning cycle ignore the little stuff and focus on thinning, make your big cuts first. Avoid making large cuts near old large cuts that haven’t sealed and are decayed. As these likely are feeding wound/callus wood.

I work many trees that are well beyond hollow as a drum where you can put your hard hat inside cavities. The balance is taking enough load off, but keeping enough green for the tree to put more wood on than what is decayed.

Don’t be afraid of heading cuts on wood that is about 1” diameter.

Reduce large water sprouts vs removal. It’s an ebb flow thing, apples are a different animal where they send sprouts up, takes a couple of years then they flower and fruit. The weigh then pulls them down that then sends up new sprouts as the cycle repeats. Encourage this. Also long whip stouts can be cut in half to stimulate branching. The following year thin the hydra, and pick one that assumes vertical to retain.

Many varieties are bi-annual bearing, so don’t expect heavy fruit every year

I tell my clients if they want production apples, it will take about 4 visits per year and that they have to thin the fruit to about 1 apple per 6” with a minimum of 6 leaves per apple. Never has anyone bitten that fruit! I do though have a couple of real production orchards at ciderys
Reading your post was like “wow!”. I’m glad I read it, otherwise I would have spouted all the same things!

Rather coincidentally, we just got a call to reign in some trees that were neglected for a few years. Mostly pear, plum, peach and cherry varieties since apples would be very susceptible to rust issues with all the Eastern Red Cedars on surrounding land.

The client had just bought the property and had several concerns, but also some misconceptions. The best part is that she and her husband want to be deeply involved in their own trees, and plan to do as much of the pruning and spraying as they can. They were not sure about how to restore the trees to a more manageable size. They also own a copy of ‘The Holistic Orchard’ by Michael Phillips. We were already off to a great start!

The things we had to establish were:
- How high are they willing to work for maintenance and harvesting? We settled on 8’ to 12’.
- How often are they willing to prune? They agreed to perform as many cycles as required based on growing conditions.
- Are they willing to accept mostly, but not all, perfect fruit. Yes! This just keeps getting better!

There are, however, different schools of thought on restorative measures. Some say reduce them slowly over time (low dosage, medium frequency). Some say hit them hard (high dosage, choose your own frequency). I recommended we do no more than 20% bud loss for the first visit. That took some explaining, and found the simplest lesson was for them to leave all material directly beneath the tree it came from and imagine gathering it up and holding like a bouquet. The bouquet should be n more than 20% the sizes of what remains in the tree.

Remember that this is all a game of light. When a tree is trained a particular way for many years and then let go, it will naturally form numerous, vigorous sprouts. Their height before and laterals form is in part due to stem density, and reduced light in the areas a lateral would be preferred. By thinning the number of stems, and also reducing the height of the remaining ones, you can encourage lateral growth through phototropism and hormone response (spreading out auxin). Any laterals that form will be more prone to horizontal growth if they are below other foliage. These new laterals can eventually become your highest structural branches. Once they harden off in your desired form and location, you can remove the parent stems above their points of attachment. If your client can stand having a taller tree, you can form other tiers above by training other laterals oriented in other directions.

Be aware of pruning with specific goals during specific times of the year. A common misconception is that one prunes in Winter for a reason, while that reason may actually be that it was when the farmer had the time to do it. There should really be 4 or 5 doses per year!

Eventually, once the desired structure has been established, your pruning targets may include, but may not be limited to:
- Unwanted vegetation.
- Unwanted or unproductive structure.
- Unwanted vegetation.
- Overly dense buds on spurs.
- Overly dense fruit on spurs.
- Unwanted vegetation.
- Entire spurs.
- Oh, and don’t forget unwanted vegetation!

With all this said, your client has to understand that this is basically impossible with a single visit. Even one visit annually is inadequate. Also, one arborist may have a multi-step plan that another arborist might not be able to pick up and run with.

Cool thread. Hope it gives you a good dose of useful information. Good luck and have fun!
 
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