- Location
- tulsa oklahoma
Docking pay for damages is garbage. It can get you in a real legal matter as well.
D.W.H
D.W.H
Property Damage
- Thread starter senones
- Start date
- Location
- West Coast, Wa
Leadership is the word that comes to mind
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
I see discipline one way...
First offense = warning and specify consequences for second offense.
Second offense = (and this is crucial) the exact consequences specified plus a new warning of more severe consequences. You must follow through with 100% consistency.
For all subsequent offenses, repeat the second offense thing. Docking pay or termination may be the consequence, but that would be a last ditch effort. Docking pay is generally not going to get good results.
Consistent, unwavering follow through with consequences is what makes it work.
First offense = warning and specify consequences for second offense.
Second offense = (and this is crucial) the exact consequences specified plus a new warning of more severe consequences. You must follow through with 100% consistency.
For all subsequent offenses, repeat the second offense thing. Docking pay or termination may be the consequence, but that would be a last ditch effort. Docking pay is generally not going to get good results.
Consistent, unwavering follow through with consequences is what makes it work.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
Id bet legally, you cannot dock someone's pay.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect its illegal, too.
Anyone know?
Id bet legally, you cannot dock someone's pay.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect its illegal, too.
Anyone know?
rfwoodvt
New member
- Location
- This side of eternity.
As with everything, there is a time and a place...Docking included. And yes, there are legal ways for it to be done and legal circumstances in which it can be done.
KYLimb, I don't accept the premise that accidents are to be accepted as a part of tree work.
Mistakes are made yes, and we hopefully learn from those mistakes.
But we don't have to accept them as a constant occurrence.
If we don't learn from those mistakes and keep making the same (or related) mistakes over and over again then it is time to stop.
It is the attitude that "accidents will happen" that makes our injury statistics so dismal.
There is nothing more frustrating than to hear a tree cutter say "let-er-rip" and not worry about where the tree lands because "that's what insurance is for."
And that is the point with having consequences for employees who make the same mistakes over and over.
The very nature of our work is deadly serious. Drop a piece of wood on someone and the consequences can be life changing, or ending.
No do-overs, no get out of jail free, no "Gee Bob, you really need to stop doing it that way." And there should never be, "that kind of thing is to be expected anyway."
Just remember your good people will rise to the level you set the bar at. Those that don't are not necessarily your "good" people nor are they necessarily a good match for your company.
Sociological studies have proven time and again, when people do not have to pay for something they will over consume that item and waste that item in unsustainable amounts. That is human nature plain and simple.
Telling people not to worry if they break something because someone else will pay for it will make many of those people more careless in what they do.
If they are of the understanding that they pay for what they break then they will think twice about not roping off that piece they were told to rope off.
It is just human nature...
As for "getting back" at the company for disciplinary action by through dragging their arse all day long or not finishing a job as soon as they could, Dude, that is stealing too!
Would you keep someone on if they took a saw from you every week? What if they grabbed a couple of checks from the till every now and again? Then why let them steal from you in that way?
Anyhow, enough soap-boxing.
KYLimb, I don't accept the premise that accidents are to be accepted as a part of tree work.
Mistakes are made yes, and we hopefully learn from those mistakes.
But we don't have to accept them as a constant occurrence.
If we don't learn from those mistakes and keep making the same (or related) mistakes over and over again then it is time to stop.
It is the attitude that "accidents will happen" that makes our injury statistics so dismal.
There is nothing more frustrating than to hear a tree cutter say "let-er-rip" and not worry about where the tree lands because "that's what insurance is for."
And that is the point with having consequences for employees who make the same mistakes over and over.
The very nature of our work is deadly serious. Drop a piece of wood on someone and the consequences can be life changing, or ending.
No do-overs, no get out of jail free, no "Gee Bob, you really need to stop doing it that way." And there should never be, "that kind of thing is to be expected anyway."
Just remember your good people will rise to the level you set the bar at. Those that don't are not necessarily your "good" people nor are they necessarily a good match for your company.
Sociological studies have proven time and again, when people do not have to pay for something they will over consume that item and waste that item in unsustainable amounts. That is human nature plain and simple.
Telling people not to worry if they break something because someone else will pay for it will make many of those people more careless in what they do.
If they are of the understanding that they pay for what they break then they will think twice about not roping off that piece they were told to rope off.
It is just human nature...
As for "getting back" at the company for disciplinary action by through dragging their arse all day long or not finishing a job as soon as they could, Dude, that is stealing too!
Would you keep someone on if they took a saw from you every week? What if they grabbed a couple of checks from the till every now and again? Then why let them steal from you in that way?
Anyhow, enough soap-boxing.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
I agree that stuff gets broken... sometimes. But a good climber won't break stuff very often... unless they're exhausted or pushed for time and have to take bigger risks.
So, if you have one guy that happens to break a lot of property and other guys who don't, it sounds like that one is careless and needs to to do some quality time on the ground at ground pay.
If you have that problem with multiple climbers, look at yourself and how you're estimating and scheduling jobs. Maybe you want more than they can give without taking unnecessary risks.
I'm not accusing, just saying.
So, if you have one guy that happens to break a lot of property and other guys who don't, it sounds like that one is careless and needs to to do some quality time on the ground at ground pay.
If you have that problem with multiple climbers, look at yourself and how you're estimating and scheduling jobs. Maybe you want more than they can give without taking unnecessary risks.
I'm not accusing, just saying.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
I think that the discussion will get better if more specific. The tangents that go off the original topic/ intented-topic sometimes are great and other times have us each discussing our own topics in one thread.
Rick, you have referred to people not roping off pieces that they have been told to rope off. I'm guessing that your mean that they are not following direct instructions from a supervisor. This is different from the one that got away in the sudden windgust that landed on the tip, compresses and sprung, instead of landing flat.
Also, damage to equipment from not following written protocol is different. I suggest that anyone wanting to have a written protocol have the employee write out and sign/ date something that says, "I have received a copy of the Employee Manual, have had ample time to read said Manual, have had opportunity for clarification on content of said Manual, understand and agree to follow the procedures of said Manual, as well as the written consequences for not following said Manual. I agree to utilize my best professional judgment in all work activities.
Signature:xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
There is a big difference between minor damage that occurred while using good judgment, and someone that ignores adhered to procedure, such as "check oil and fluids everyday before operation machine, and after no more than every two hours of operation.
A big difference between unforseeable accident and general poor professional judgment--which accounts for how its so hard to find really good employees.
Everything coming down from every tree could be roped down, but it would be too inefficient to be practical, but there would likely be very little to no damage. All is a balancing act, which requires constant risk assessment/ situational awareness, and good judgment.
Rick, you have referred to people not roping off pieces that they have been told to rope off. I'm guessing that your mean that they are not following direct instructions from a supervisor. This is different from the one that got away in the sudden windgust that landed on the tip, compresses and sprung, instead of landing flat.
Also, damage to equipment from not following written protocol is different. I suggest that anyone wanting to have a written protocol have the employee write out and sign/ date something that says, "I have received a copy of the Employee Manual, have had ample time to read said Manual, have had opportunity for clarification on content of said Manual, understand and agree to follow the procedures of said Manual, as well as the written consequences for not following said Manual. I agree to utilize my best professional judgment in all work activities.
Signature:xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
There is a big difference between minor damage that occurred while using good judgment, and someone that ignores adhered to procedure, such as "check oil and fluids everyday before operation machine, and after no more than every two hours of operation.
A big difference between unforseeable accident and general poor professional judgment--which accounts for how its so hard to find really good employees.
Everything coming down from every tree could be roped down, but it would be too inefficient to be practical, but there would likely be very little to no damage. All is a balancing act, which requires constant risk assessment/ situational awareness, and good judgment.
OK. I see you all are opinionated on this matter. Good. A few things. This work is performed in Florida. It is a "right to work" state. Although I document everything, I can terminate employees whenever I deem necesarry. Also, the guys have all been warned, as a blanket statement, "Property damage is grounds for dismissal". I do believe that I should deduct their paychecks, but Corporate will not allow. The thing is that I know these things happen. I am trying to be understanding, but when is enough enough? Do they do it out of disregard for my clients property? All I know is if they understand that they can get in trouble and still "fail to use due care", then yes, it is happening due to a disregard for my clients property.
- Location
- NJ
[ QUOTE ]
"Property damage is grounds for dismissal". I do believe that I should deduct their paychecks, but Corporate will not allow.
[/ QUOTE ]
I worked for a company like this, I'd have to bring to light, your lame arse office beetches better be able to get up thar and show me by example. I always hated the sales guy that sends yea to a 4 year dead tree and cries about the busted yard nome of 20$. You want the 20 $, fine, next day get your fat arse up thar and show me how it's done. I say if you can't, guess you better suck it up.
Now if a guy is just dropping stuff on the house or such without a rope then your just an idjit for keeping him working.
"Property damage is grounds for dismissal". I do believe that I should deduct their paychecks, but Corporate will not allow.
[/ QUOTE ]
I worked for a company like this, I'd have to bring to light, your lame arse office beetches better be able to get up thar and show me by example. I always hated the sales guy that sends yea to a 4 year dead tree and cries about the busted yard nome of 20$. You want the 20 $, fine, next day get your fat arse up thar and show me how it's done. I say if you can't, guess you better suck it up.
Now if a guy is just dropping stuff on the house or such without a rope then your just an idjit for keeping him working.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
Senones, you keep saying 'they'... so you hired a whole crew of irresponsible lames? Sounds like the problem isn't all with the climbers.
It's rare, but I totally agree with Holly. Show'em how it's done... on the same schedule as you expect them to keep, or quit whining.
I can do almost ANY job with zero damage... but rush me and stuff's gonna break. It can easily cost an hour or so to keep a fence intact. The difference in time between rigging and letting it fall is big. You have to trade off somewhere.
It's rare, but I totally agree with Holly. Show'em how it's done... on the same schedule as you expect them to keep, or quit whining.
I can do almost ANY job with zero damage... but rush me and stuff's gonna break. It can easily cost an hour or so to keep a fence intact. The difference in time between rigging and letting it fall is big. You have to trade off somewhere.
- Location
- NJ
[ QUOTE ]
It's rare, but I totally agree with Holly.
[/ QUOTE ]
SShhhhh don't let others know they'll hate you too.
It's rare, but I totally agree with Holly.
[/ QUOTE ]
SShhhhh don't let others know they'll hate you too.
rfwoodvt
New member
- Location
- This side of eternity.
[ QUOTE ]
It's rare, but I totally agree with Holly.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can do almost ANY job with zero damage... but rush me and stuff's gonna break. It can easily cost an hour or so to keep a fence intact. The difference in time between rigging and letting it fall is big. You have to trade off somewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with you on both counts Blinky.
The biggest agreement is that the job has to be bid accordingly.
As for minor damage yes those things can and are anticipated. We sell our services as minimal impact but do not offer "zero impact" services.
We tell the customer right off the bat to expect ruts and divots as well as damage to landscape plantings. Some customers do not want to accept that kind of damage. Sometimes we negotiate, other times we pass them on to a very meticulous arbo who can guarantee zero-impact.
Funny thing is, such zero impact services are verrry expensive. It "amazes" me how often they come back to us because the price difference between smushed hostas and zero-impact is so significant.
At the same time, though, we require that anything that is of value and mobile be removed from the work zone.
Anything that is immovable and is not a living landscape enhancement, though, is afforded zero-impact status.
That $20 lawn gnome? Damage to that is unaccepable. It should have been moved.
Brush that gets tip dropped and springs through the window? Well, the window should have been protected with OSB.
The brushy vertical that gets caught in a gust? yes, it happens but then again, the wind should't have been a surprise.
These "uncontrollables" could at least have been anticipated and accounted for to some extent.
Now, if the job isn't being bid with this stuff in mind, then the salesman needs to have his arse dragged out there and hung in the tree while the job is being done.
Bottom line though, is what has the customer been promised?
Lastly, occasional minor stuff is not necessarily the problem. Frequent, regular and major, now those are the problems.
Comes back to everyone needs to know what the rules of engagement are and then be held accountable to them.
Don't want to play by the rules? No problem, find another game or people that do.
From the employee side it's often called changing jobs for a better opportunity
It's rare, but I totally agree with Holly.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can do almost ANY job with zero damage... but rush me and stuff's gonna break. It can easily cost an hour or so to keep a fence intact. The difference in time between rigging and letting it fall is big. You have to trade off somewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with you on both counts Blinky.
The biggest agreement is that the job has to be bid accordingly.
As for minor damage yes those things can and are anticipated. We sell our services as minimal impact but do not offer "zero impact" services.
We tell the customer right off the bat to expect ruts and divots as well as damage to landscape plantings. Some customers do not want to accept that kind of damage. Sometimes we negotiate, other times we pass them on to a very meticulous arbo who can guarantee zero-impact.
Funny thing is, such zero impact services are verrry expensive. It "amazes" me how often they come back to us because the price difference between smushed hostas and zero-impact is so significant.
At the same time, though, we require that anything that is of value and mobile be removed from the work zone.
Anything that is immovable and is not a living landscape enhancement, though, is afforded zero-impact status.
That $20 lawn gnome? Damage to that is unaccepable. It should have been moved.
Brush that gets tip dropped and springs through the window? Well, the window should have been protected with OSB.
The brushy vertical that gets caught in a gust? yes, it happens but then again, the wind should't have been a surprise.
These "uncontrollables" could at least have been anticipated and accounted for to some extent.
Now, if the job isn't being bid with this stuff in mind, then the salesman needs to have his arse dragged out there and hung in the tree while the job is being done.
Bottom line though, is what has the customer been promised?
Lastly, occasional minor stuff is not necessarily the problem. Frequent, regular and major, now those are the problems.
Comes back to everyone needs to know what the rules of engagement are and then be held accountable to them.
Don't want to play by the rules? No problem, find another game or people that do.
From the employee side it's often called changing jobs for a better opportunity
A couple of things. First, to address Blinky- yes, They. all of the guys here are "green" I've been looking for an Arborist/ Tree Climber for 1 year and have had limited luck. I really do spend a lot of time training these guys and am with them everyday in the field. I believe some of it has to do with trying to take the short cut. I am all for cutting corners and increasing efficiencies, but only when it works. These guys are not qualified to make these decisions (short cuts) based on their skill level. Another incident today. a new guy (started 1 week ago) clipped an awning with the top of the Chip Truck.
Secondly, you guys read way to much into this stuff. I am an articulate person (I's be thinkin) and you guys STILL busted me. So the question is: How can you fire a "regular offender: on the second offense? I guess I was reffering to different types of property damage. BUT, next time I write an article for AUF may I post it here for proofreading? Thank you.
Anyways, I believe i found a compromise. I've always felt this damage should be deducted from one's pay. The reason is that this is where one feels it the most. It seems like a great opportunity for the employee to learn the lesson. I do believe I will start to suspend them for one day (no pay) after the second offense.
Secondly, you guys read way to much into this stuff. I am an articulate person (I's be thinkin) and you guys STILL busted me. So the question is: How can you fire a "regular offender: on the second offense? I guess I was reffering to different types of property damage. BUT, next time I write an article for AUF may I post it here for proofreading? Thank you.
Anyways, I believe i found a compromise. I've always felt this damage should be deducted from one's pay. The reason is that this is where one feels it the most. It seems like a great opportunity for the employee to learn the lesson. I do believe I will start to suspend them for one day (no pay) after the second offense.
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
I was a dishwasher as a teenager. Constantly had pressure put on to do dishes faster, so I did dishes faster. Guess what? more dishes got dropped/chipped. The employer threatened to take them out of my pay. I slowed down and was more careful then I got axed for being slow. Now if I make a bonehead mistake like forgetting to put the oil cap on the chipper and loosing it. I offer to pay for it, but if I'm being pushed to move as fast as I can well boss guess what? Dishes will get broken.
rfwoodvt
New member
- Location
- This side of eternity.
Senones,
I apologize if you feel I've been busting on you, that certainly wasn't my intent.
Couple of questions.
Have you identified why these mistakes are being made and thus damage being done?
Have you sat down with the team as a group and individually to discuss what has been happening and how it can change?
We certainly can change behavior through negative consequences. That does work. But if we don't know why the behavior is occurring then then such actions may be counterproductive as has been pointed out.
Case in point offered by EVO.
So, are these guys breaking stuff because they are incompetent or lazy or are they working at a pace beyond their "job maturity."
What I mean by JM is that over time we amass knowledge that we draw in on split seconds to help us work faster and more efficient. Newbies while they may know the fundamentals inside and out, may not have the job maturity to put all that together in the myriad permutations on the fly. That can lead to things getting ahead of them , out of hand and BAM! damage.
If that is why the damage occurs then it is my problem and I need to fix it, whether changing pace or bidding or, well there are bunches of things.
On the other hand, if they are truly careless or lazy then it is simple, let them know loud and clear that if they value their paycheck then they will not let it happen again.
And if they break something again, follow through with the promised course of action, swiftly and surely.
It is very difficult to do this with people who have been allowed to act that way for an extended period of time. It is always easier to instill it in a new person.
We had a practical joker join us last fall. After endangering one climber I pulled him aside and simply told him, such things were unacceptable and it will not happen again. "This is my party and my rules, do it again and you will not be invited back." Funny thing is his behavior changed!
As for fining or charging for replacements you really should consult an employment lawyer. Docking pay though is not uncommon and unions have dealt with it forever, and again, an employment lawyer is one to check with.
the $200 or so it would cost to spend an hour with the barrister could well save you thousands in damages, rehires and all the other crap that goes with disciplinary actions.
I apologize if you feel I've been busting on you, that certainly wasn't my intent.
Couple of questions.
Have you identified why these mistakes are being made and thus damage being done?
Have you sat down with the team as a group and individually to discuss what has been happening and how it can change?
We certainly can change behavior through negative consequences. That does work. But if we don't know why the behavior is occurring then then such actions may be counterproductive as has been pointed out.
Case in point offered by EVO.
So, are these guys breaking stuff because they are incompetent or lazy or are they working at a pace beyond their "job maturity."
What I mean by JM is that over time we amass knowledge that we draw in on split seconds to help us work faster and more efficient. Newbies while they may know the fundamentals inside and out, may not have the job maturity to put all that together in the myriad permutations on the fly. That can lead to things getting ahead of them , out of hand and BAM! damage.
If that is why the damage occurs then it is my problem and I need to fix it, whether changing pace or bidding or, well there are bunches of things.
On the other hand, if they are truly careless or lazy then it is simple, let them know loud and clear that if they value their paycheck then they will not let it happen again.
And if they break something again, follow through with the promised course of action, swiftly and surely.
It is very difficult to do this with people who have been allowed to act that way for an extended period of time. It is always easier to instill it in a new person.
We had a practical joker join us last fall. After endangering one climber I pulled him aside and simply told him, such things were unacceptable and it will not happen again. "This is my party and my rules, do it again and you will not be invited back." Funny thing is his behavior changed!
As for fining or charging for replacements you really should consult an employment lawyer. Docking pay though is not uncommon and unions have dealt with it forever, and again, an employment lawyer is one to check with.
the $200 or so it would cost to spend an hour with the barrister could well save you thousands in damages, rehires and all the other crap that goes with disciplinary actions.
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Fruit tree holding on by a thread, client wants to get another year out of it. Thoughts?- Started by climbingmonkey24
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