proper pruning

Is this a test Daniel? There is a huge stub there.
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Why didn't you drop it back to the lateral you left? It looked like it was at least 1/3rd the diameter of the parent stem.

However, I sort of liked the other large lateral that was about %50 the diameter of the parent stem...

What was proper about that stub?

It is amazing how popular home veggie gardens are now a days. But, the sad thing is, peopole are requesting way too much to be cut off for the sake of the sunlight. My suggestion is, put the garden where there is better light. Don't put it where you think it looks fun and butcher the tree neighboring by! --I digress...
 
he's trying to recreate another branch tip with the advantageous buds that will appear at a later date. then come back and prune those to select a new apical dominate leader. if the stob dies off before it produce a new set of shoots, then it can be pruned back at a later date. this is a good practice if your sure the customer will have you back at a later date. ed gilmore recommends for removing co-dominate leaders that you subordinate one of the leaders by removing just enough green to nullify secondary meristematic growth. if this is done year after year the leader will shrink to one fifth of the size of the parent stem, then it can be removed. this is a very good tactic for poor compartmentalizers or any tree for that matter as long as the home owner is willing to deal with stobs all over the place. imho
 
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i think he explained all that in the intro to the video

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If he explained leaving a stub, then I missed that. But, I'm having a difficult time with the term or title (proper pruning).

If he had made the cut back at the collar, I believe that a bunch of epicormics would sprout up there and gradually fill in a little more of the tree.

On a side note: Even if Daniel plans on going back in the future to dealwith the epicormics, I think the principle of leabing stubs is a poor example of professional work.

I'm sorry Daniel, but am I missing something? Why are you calling it proper pruning? Because it would be in conflict with industry standards.
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In some circumstance I could see leaving a stub like that.

Think of it as a crown reduction or even the way we look at post storm work. Keeping the decay away from larger and larger portions of the tree could be a good approach.

Shigo talked about this years ago when dealing with codoms.
 
I'd have to agree with Jamin here.....

How is this different to topping?

If you can justify it being ok because you'll follow up, then so would be the case with topping, no?

I have heard some around the traps tout this idea before....but i dont really buy it.

I can see how on a totally busted up storm damged tree it might be the only alternative to removal, and over time, with lots of corrective pruning some sort of a canopy can be restored.

But i dont think i'd do it to a perfectly good tree with a range of suitable pruning target options....
 
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ed gilmore recommends for removing co-dominate leaders that you subordinate one of the leaders by removing just enough green to nullify secondary meristematic growth. if this is done year after year the leader will shrink to one fifth of the size of the parent stem, then it can be removed. this is a very good tactic for poor compartmentalizers or any tree for that matter as long as the home owner is willing to deal with stobs all over the place. imho

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That's a recommendation meant for training young trees. That tree is about as likely to respond to that treatment as a person is likely to have a growth spurt in their 80s.

As for the overall treatment here, I'm lukewarm at best. Sometimes leaving a stub several feet out from a lateral can seriously destabilize the lateral. I'd almost prefer a faux breakout stub without leaving the lateral, or just make the cut at the trunk.

I know we often have to compromise our wants and the tree's wants for the client's, it's part of the job, but I'm having trouble seeing this one as a good compromise.
 
dude down here oak trees have half inch outer growth rings and are 36" to 48" dbh at fifty to sixty years old so maybe where your from that doesn't work, but other places might be different. plus it also allows the tree more time to put up more chemical barriers to stop the spread of decay then the tree is only compartmentalizing one wall not four- if the stob dies off. i don't do this practice everyday or would recommend it done everyday, but working on a tulip poplar yeah it might just work. cause those trees make cavities like crazy. there would be a hole you could drive a truck into in the trunk of that tree in like five years if he made that cut at the trunk
 
Sorry guys but where did the word "proper" fit in there.
This was not "handling" a customer, this was "giving in" in a serious bad way.
Leaving of a stub is in my opinion a GOOD technique to keep the fowling out of a structure, but that was the only "proper" thing I saw. You just can't cut out limbs as big as this and call it proper pruning.
 
I'm pretty sure the only thing that will benefit from leaving that stub is woodpeckers and squirells.

Even if the tree did shoot sprouts out like mad, the wound can't calus over unless brought back to the lateral collar. Right?
 
Yes,
Maybe proper pruning wasn't the best name for this thread...

and I learned this approach to handling large limb removals at the customer's insistence, after hearing Guy Meilleur give a talk about correcting storm damaged trees.. I thought.. well.. what's the difference between a storm tearing a big limb in half and the customer insisting that the limb be removed to let light into the garden... NOT MUCH to the tree.. if its better to leave a stub on a storm damaged limb, and the customer will allow the limb she wants removed to be left at 10-15', then why not leave the limb as we would do if it was storm damaged..

That tree will never "callous over" a 12" cut, even if made at the lateral that is 1/3 diameter of the parent stem.. NEVER.. and also note that "callousing over" does not stop decay.. And a cut at the trunk of that size would shorten the life of that tree by 20-50 years or more.. as well as create an imminemt hazard..

So I'll keep an eye on the tree..

Guy Meilleur goes by "treeseer" here and on other forums.. he's a board certified master arborist (one of the first to revieve that title), consulting arborist, as well as author of numerous articles, and is frequently asked to present at the ISA international symposium, etc..

Here is Guy's respopnse to the video:

Mr. Murphy,

Thank you so much for sharing your excellent work. I am humbled and gratified that you cite my work as support for your tree preservation strategy. For all the unpaid hours I have spent on reviving Shigo et al's work on nodal pruning, seeing your work and hearing your approach makes it all worthwhile.

It looked from the appearance of previous laterals that were shed at that node--that "imperfection" a sign of bundles of buds and other stem cell tissue, aka "concentrations of vitality" as ISA President Colin Bashford calls these nodes-- that you found a good target. Whether or not those buds release is in part a function of how much light they get. It seems from your video that morning sun will hit it. Sometimes I thin/reduce above those cuts per need to let more light in.

Please keep me up to date on the tree's response. I await pics of sprouts like a child awaits Christmas!

Guy Philip Meilleur
ISA Board-Certified Master Arborist #SO-0284BMUT
ISA Certified Tree Worker & Utility & Municipal Specialist
Better Tree Care Associates
 
i went back to the property today and now, nearly two years later the stub has put out two little clumps of new shoots, maybe 1' tall. don't remember seeing them last year, but maybe i misses it... think they are new this spring... made me happy.. got pics to post later
 
Just say no. I like the word at times.

I would be curious how the rest of the tree manages wind force after removal of that limb. It wasn't the best of attachment, so ok on removing it. I would have probably advised over more time though.

In analysis of sun for a garden, the upper crown usually does so much in the way of shade that I doubt the removal of the one limb will make for spectacular garden results. In most cases thinning only works for a short period of time. Even with the proper cuts, the tree knows you took from it and goes right to work putting it back on. Bad cuts usually result in an even more dense canopy if you don't send the tree south. I have seen quite a few trees head south after large cuts such as the one in the video. Luckily poplar seems to be somewhat bulletproof. Lightning strikes that take out 1/2 the cambium seem to be fertilizer... Seen one once that was two crescent moons and I could see daylight between them. Tree looked GREAT and super interesting
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I get allows time for adjustment, but that is a heck of a hunk.

Loves the tree?
 
I've seen trees that have healed over large cuts like the one that should have been made. It has to do with if the tree is healthy and vigorous with it's growth which that one looked like a canidate. Let me guess, there's still not enough light in the garden?
 
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Trees don't heal they seal
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[/ QUOTE ]Me too

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And then there is the distinction between callus and woundwood. I think we are talking woundwood. But that's neither here nor there in this discussion.

I would have picked the lateral and pruned to there as per accepted industry standards. However, I'm not going to dismiss Daniel's idea out of hand. He didn't just leave a stub for the sake of it. He has a plan. Not anywhere near convinced it will work better than going to the lateral.

But I'll have an open mind, and I'd be intereted to find out if it works well. Maybe it works with tulips (I don't know those trees well. We don't have 'em). We have regular Populus here and I've often wondered whether leaving a stub in SOME cases in order to trigger adventitious shoots would be a good idea. I think this experimental type of thing is only worth considering if one knows the tree will be visited for evaluation every year or so for a regular client.

My wondering is based on seeing regrowth of poplars after seeing limbs that broke naturally and were not cleaned up 'properly'.

I will have a damaged ash to remove a long partly dead lead from, and the obvious place to cut it is where it joins one of the main trunk limbs. But there is a skinny lateral, nowhere near 1/3 the diameter further out and I'm going to cut only to there. It will look silly to a trained arborist. But I am hoping that not putting a large wound near the trunk, plus maybe giving the small lareral a chance to establish might be better for the tree.
 
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