Pin Oak

Not exactly sure what it is ya'll are calling a "pin oak", looks from the pictures to be what we would all agree is some type of "red oak". Fast grower, right? I admit to not having any experiance with trees in NJ but come on. Won't that cut close over before a cavity ever even forms? On our Tx oaks, what ever the species, you have to make a pretty severe flush cut on a pretty big stem for a cavity to develop and that could take 10 - 20 years. Oak is hard decay resistant wood. The only thing that limb needs to be on the extra safe side is mabey a cable. I can't beleive That the few drops of water that might get into that lower damaged spot could cause more damage with a freeze, not enough presure. Filling cavitys does trap moisture and does excelerate the decay procces, puting the tree at a diadvantage.
 
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Im with Tom and Nevic on this one, keep to mormal pruning standards of finishing cuts, to allow the branch barrier protection zone to heal correctly. As Nevic said an ariel inspection yearly or maybe every 6 months to be on the safe side. My only concern is water getting in to the split, especially during the winter when frost and ice can cause the most damage within the split. I wouldn´t plug the holes either just let mother nature heal it in its own way best. You have to let it breath correctly to heal....

Scotty

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with you Scotty, very well put. Nice job Mark, well done.
 
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Won't that cut close over before a cavity ever even forms? On our Tx oaks, what ever the species, you have to make a pretty severe flush cut on a pretty big stem for a cavity to develop and that could take 10 - 20 years. Oak is hard decay resistant wood.

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I was stating that an internal column of decay will probably form (not necessarily an external cavity). The column will most likely form, and continue development, after wall 4 seals the wound. Recall that walls 1 and 2 are relatively weak.

Something else to consider... horizontal cracks in the trunk are particularly nasty (according to Shigo and Mattheck) compared to vertical cracks.
 
Looks like a co-dom limb then. Mabey it's just the picture. You would know better than me, you were up there. But seems like s good cut to me, thanx for the pics. how do you attatch pictures on this forum any ways?
 
I'm by no means a pro but I've seen many a pin oak.They are tough old geezers and I haven't seen many that have rotted out.
 
I've seen red oak with cylinders for limbs, they last a long time but you have to wonder why the middle has rotted out of them and if caught at an early stage and filled would they heal better and stay sound for the life of the tree.
 
Well,a red oak is a horse of a different color,so to speak.A lot of of residential red oaks are hollow ,much to their owners surprise.



Correction,this is a white oak,sorry
 

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Why thank you Sir Tree Rat,

Well I guess that time at college did help me in some way, before I dropped out due to financial reasons....

The english langauge when written correctly is amazing way to describe a subject..... Thats my quote for this centuary long may it last


Scotty
 
Ask Glen, Nevic about the pictures, Glen is the resident tree buzz wizard on these things.

Every time you write a reply click the preveiw reply box then it is really straight forward, as long as your pictures are not to big you wont get a row either....

It´s not Rocket Science, as a former college teacher would shout at us all......

Scotty
 
Scotty you're a good student!

"Nevic", see a recent post for a quick overview of the necessary steps.

Also look for a separate thread soon containing discussion of concepts and proofs culled from my posts in page 4 and page 5 of the "/Tree Talk/Climbers Talk/Self tending climbing system" thread. Just look for the longest-winded-looking posts and/or my pasty-white feet.

One thing not mentioned anywhere else that I know of is to be sure and check your post after it's been submitted. You'll want to make sure every link works as expected (that step can easily be made on a returned preview prior to submission) and make sure to fetch your attachment to check its validity. If you find problems with either content or attachment, don't hesitate to "edit" the post and remedy things.
 
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It makes sense to me to plug the cavity.
I wouldn't plug it when it's full of moisture and I would even attempt to clean out some of the loose decay prior to filling it.
Anything dead that is exposed to water and oxygen is most likely to decay.
Anything that holds water is subject to splitting when frozen.
This is all based on common sense only.

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"Common sense is the practical application of all you know."---Jim Sebesta

After reading lots of information about cavity filling I can't support it's use as anything except to 'maybe' keep critters out. there is no benefit to trees that I've ever read.

There's no product available that can bond to wood, flex with tree movement, not degrade because of various environmental issues and keep water out of the wood.

Shigo did some of his early work on wound fillers and is most well known for giving us our understanding of CODIT. Once a tree is wounded the processes of decay and compartmentalization are pretty uniform and not very changeable.

Water getting into a wound or cavity is not likely to cause much cracking because of ice expansion. The water column will expand upwards and have a round cap. If ice cracking in trees were found to be the same as in rocks there would be precious few trees standing in any place above the 'snow/ice line'. After spending most of my life in Minnesota I have to say that I never saw one tree that popped apart because of ice expansion. I sure saw plenty of evidence of ice popping apart rocks though. Trees are much more flexible so I believe that any outward expansion of the water column is accomodated.
 
They sure snap and crack here in the forest on a cold winters night Tom.

I would agree that finding something suitable as a filling agent might be difficult and a yearly inspection to make any repairs would most likely be needed.
The foam might work but might need to be treated for weather resistance.
If it isn't repaired and maintained then there's not much hope for it to work.
When was the last study done, to what extent and over how many years?

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The water column will expand upwards and have a round cap

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That's not true.
 
The snapping and cracking is more likely the wood fibers breaking from the way that water moves from inter to intra cellular not from pockets of water in holes.

Take a look at ice cubes...or better, take a plastic bottle, fill it partially with water and put it in the freezer. More expansion goes up than out unless the container is full and capped. I keep a one liter Nalgene Lexan water bottle in the freezer half full of water. I just looked at it...domed top and not cracked. For close to two decades I spent at a minimum of a week every year camping on the MN/Ontario border...in February. During that time, there were many water containers frozen. Few broke unless they were full of water. Iced cubes in trays will all be domed too.

What's your experience with freezing water?

In order to monitor the effectiveness of any filling it would take extensive non-invasive tests to establish a base line and then to follow up.

Have you read the ISA book about the history of modern arborculture? I'm not sure of the exact title. there is lots written in there about the Davey/Bartlett issues in the early part of the last century dealing with cavity work.

I'm always open to things that will benefit trees. So far though, I haven't seen a thing that convinces me that any kind of filling benefits trees.
 
I agree with your theory on moisture freezing in the trees, I wasn't insinuating that these were pockets of water in every tree that were freezing but at the same time I'm sure some were.

If you fill a solid cylinder with water it will freeze on the exposed end first, the end that is exposed to the cold like a lake suface.
The end freezes, caps the opening, the ice penetrates deeper and will split under pressure from the inside.
We see lots of split water pipes here for that very reason.

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In order to monitor the effectiveness of any filling it would take extensive non-invasive tests to establish a base line and then to follow up.

[/ QUOTE ] This I agree with.



I have never read anything on the subject but I believe that any testing done today would be much different than anything done even twenty years ago due to new products available.
I remember seeing cavities filled with cement years ago and I'm sure you have as well.
Would you think it would make matters worse if it was done properly?
 
Don't make me get my Gat...
aaf_shifty.gif
 
Kevin,

I'm glad that we can keep this dialog going. I don't want to come off like a wet-blanket. Sometimes I see things, make my interpretation and then later learn just a bit more that changes what I was seeing.

Freezing water pipes are a bit different though. Since they're capped and pressurized the water reacts differently don't you think?

I remember my high school physics class well enough to recall the amazing properties of water. Water does things that no other liquid on earth does. It is no surprise that Earth is called the Water Planet.

Off topic ahead...on an old Roy Underhill show he was talking about cleaning up old, rusty tools. He said that he started any restoration with the 'Universal Solvent'...plain old water and a scrubber. Water will dissolve many things. I have to think that it has a mighty control on the creepy nasties that cause wood decay.
 
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