TC
Participating member
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Photo of Chainsaw Injury
- Thread starter TC
- Start date
Roger_Barnett
Participating member
- Location
- Seattle, in the PNWet
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speaking of getting all excited, seems you've got your panties in a knot....or at the least, a wedgie....
Riggs is his last name, and he's a colorful guy, and rough around the edges; with opinions, which, like arsehos, we all have. But we like him!
I too am opinionated, a bit....but don't like to jump in to issues like this one, as I know what the safe and sane way to use a saw is.....only trouble is, I don't have the time to work that way. Have been doing the same for 32 years, many of those with heavy saws like the Homie Super EZ Auto, and Echo 302 and 330, that weren't even top handled. Try one handing one of those puppies.....after that, a 6.5 lb 192T feels like a Zubat with a muffler.....
But that's me, I don't train others to do such dangerous, and sloppy things....or this lunacy...
There IS one situation when one handing is always better and safer, and that is when cutting way out and below. One handing allows you to be positioned further from the action, and thus in a safer place as the branch swings away, if on a rope, or pops off, perhaps as you're hinging it to swing.
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YAWN
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speaking of getting all excited, seems you've got your panties in a knot....or at the least, a wedgie....
Riggs is his last name, and he's a colorful guy, and rough around the edges; with opinions, which, like arsehos, we all have. But we like him!
I too am opinionated, a bit....but don't like to jump in to issues like this one, as I know what the safe and sane way to use a saw is.....only trouble is, I don't have the time to work that way. Have been doing the same for 32 years, many of those with heavy saws like the Homie Super EZ Auto, and Echo 302 and 330, that weren't even top handled. Try one handing one of those puppies.....after that, a 6.5 lb 192T feels like a Zubat with a muffler.....
But that's me, I don't train others to do such dangerous, and sloppy things....or this lunacy...
There IS one situation when one handing is always better and safer, and that is when cutting way out and below. One handing allows you to be positioned further from the action, and thus in a safer place as the branch swings away, if on a rope, or pops off, perhaps as you're hinging it to swing.
Attachments
- Location
- Longmont, CO
Gareth: Nice "My Space" you got there. I like the quotes too.
Maybe one handed saw use should be left only to competent seasoned professionals. If I fall into that group I know I do it infrequently but confidently. I would be pissed if I seen one of our rooky's attempting it, and we would probably have words about it.
I don't think anybody advocates one handing all the time, also I don't think you can dis a professional who can pull it off as safe as possible.
Good to see the gruesome pic though it is an important reminder and i will show our crews, complacency and overconfidence will cause mayhem also.
I would be one sorry a__ s climber on a rope high in a tree with that injury. Hard to imagine, morphine please
I don't think anybody advocates one handing all the time, also I don't think you can dis a professional who can pull it off as safe as possible.
Good to see the gruesome pic though it is an important reminder and i will show our crews, complacency and overconfidence will cause mayhem also.
I would be one sorry a__ s climber on a rope high in a tree with that injury. Hard to imagine, morphine please
Grover,
Nice picture.
Yes, just like about every one else on here said, I don't think it was one handed saw use that did this either.
Makes me wonder if someone attacked someone with a saw. Appears to be a right arm. Did the person put up the arm to block the saw? Or were they a left handed person, using a big saw and they were wiping the sweat off of their forehead with the right arm and the saw kicked up. (I know a guy that was using a 044, took his left hand off to wipe his face while still cutting full throttle, saw tip touched another log, kicked up and he blocked his face with his hand, cut his hand pretty bad, no permanent hand use injury though).
And Grover, you can't say it doesn't matter how this happened, because you were suggesting if you use one hand, you will end up like this.
You are sick of reading about one handed saw use on this forum. Well, I'm a bit sick of reading about how people like you keep making blanket statements, stating that I have to use two hands at all times and there are no exceptions.
You come off saying right away, Mark and Tom, don't delete this thread.
Well, I guess you planned on getting mouthy from the beginning. Argue your point all you want, but if you want to seriously talk about this, you won't use curse words and directly attack Riggs and MB.
You said you are sick about reading about one handed saw use. But you started this thread and look here. Most of the professionals here are stating that there are times one handed use is okay. But, I guess since they are at times using one hand, they truely are NOT PROFESSIONALS, in your opinion.
I really wonder, are you really a climber? Or, maybe, did you just start? Do you actually work every day in the trees; trimming everything from a thick bradford pear to a long and lanky giant silver maple? Do you do large technical removals?
I like the point someone made about being able to make the right cut only with one handed chainsaw (top-handle) use.
Good point. This is when I use one hand the most. Here's the scenario: Say, properly thinning out a big bradford pear. I try to tie in up high, but the thing is so big and round; the tie in point is so thin, you lash two of the central sprouts together with slings and caribiners for the tie in point. Even still with the tie in as high as possible, when you work out on the horizontal limbs, the angle of the climbing line is becoming so horizontal, that you can't go much further out on the now 1.5" diameter limb, or it will break. You are trying to get out to a "y" junction to trim one of the y's off. Using one hand you can reach the proper cut location and you can make the cut with the correct angle, so that there is no stub. While I am out there, I can also reach three or four other limbs and properly thin them out as well. My chainsaw is far out away from my body, my ropes are far away from the saw and my legs aren't below it either, my legs are way behind me, back on the limb as I am leaning outward with my weight on the climbing line. How else would I make these cuts? I could not go out any further in order to use two hands, because the limb would break. I could maybe use my handsaw, but my 200t has a farther reach. (Plus, from experience, the handsaw causes me more accidents than a chainsaw, cut myself many times with a handsaw, never with a chainsaw, been working in tree care since I was 15 or 16 years old, I'm 33 now, full time climber for 12 years now).
How else could I make those cuts? Pole saw maybe? Put in a redirect and maybe get a foot farther out? Okay... now plan on doing 60 to 100 cuts in this tree, and do all those cuts with two hands only?!.... the trimming time just tripled. Instead of a $500 trim job, it would have to be $1500. Then where are we? out of a job, because we don't get any of our bids.
It's hard enough bidding against someone that bid cheap because they are going to do a real fast topping job, verses our proper thinning.
I not saying do something dangerous, because it will save you time. I do not feel my one handed use is dangerous the way I use it. Not at all dangerous. I am not "evaluating the risk" as others have stated. Using it far out and away from my body, with no rope near it and no legs under it, the saw is being used safely.
I like to see that people are being instructed to use two hands. Because I've seen new climbers trying to use one hand in most of their cutting sitiuations. This is the wrong reason. They are often doing it because they feel it looks like they are experienced and are basically being a "cowboy". Very stupid to use one hand when your other hand is in reach of the saw, or if that hand is not needed for another task.
I don't see how a productive climber with lots of experience can say that one handed saw use can never be used. I just don't see how.
These forums are a good way for people to act like they have experience, when they really aren't. They have SOME climbing experience and have had safty training. With the information they have, they act as though they know everything and try to give advice to everyone.
Reminds me of activist in college. They know a little bit about something, but they can put lots of energy into the "cause" without really knowing everything about it.
I just don't see how you can say one handed use, should NEVER be used.
I think you started this thread, not to honestly discuss this professionally. You did it to start a fight.
And that's fine I guess, maybe you need to get some frustration out.
Nice picture.
Yes, just like about every one else on here said, I don't think it was one handed saw use that did this either.
Makes me wonder if someone attacked someone with a saw. Appears to be a right arm. Did the person put up the arm to block the saw? Or were they a left handed person, using a big saw and they were wiping the sweat off of their forehead with the right arm and the saw kicked up. (I know a guy that was using a 044, took his left hand off to wipe his face while still cutting full throttle, saw tip touched another log, kicked up and he blocked his face with his hand, cut his hand pretty bad, no permanent hand use injury though).
And Grover, you can't say it doesn't matter how this happened, because you were suggesting if you use one hand, you will end up like this.
You are sick of reading about one handed saw use on this forum. Well, I'm a bit sick of reading about how people like you keep making blanket statements, stating that I have to use two hands at all times and there are no exceptions.
You come off saying right away, Mark and Tom, don't delete this thread.
Well, I guess you planned on getting mouthy from the beginning. Argue your point all you want, but if you want to seriously talk about this, you won't use curse words and directly attack Riggs and MB.
You said you are sick about reading about one handed saw use. But you started this thread and look here. Most of the professionals here are stating that there are times one handed use is okay. But, I guess since they are at times using one hand, they truely are NOT PROFESSIONALS, in your opinion.
I really wonder, are you really a climber? Or, maybe, did you just start? Do you actually work every day in the trees; trimming everything from a thick bradford pear to a long and lanky giant silver maple? Do you do large technical removals?
I like the point someone made about being able to make the right cut only with one handed chainsaw (top-handle) use.
Good point. This is when I use one hand the most. Here's the scenario: Say, properly thinning out a big bradford pear. I try to tie in up high, but the thing is so big and round; the tie in point is so thin, you lash two of the central sprouts together with slings and caribiners for the tie in point. Even still with the tie in as high as possible, when you work out on the horizontal limbs, the angle of the climbing line is becoming so horizontal, that you can't go much further out on the now 1.5" diameter limb, or it will break. You are trying to get out to a "y" junction to trim one of the y's off. Using one hand you can reach the proper cut location and you can make the cut with the correct angle, so that there is no stub. While I am out there, I can also reach three or four other limbs and properly thin them out as well. My chainsaw is far out away from my body, my ropes are far away from the saw and my legs aren't below it either, my legs are way behind me, back on the limb as I am leaning outward with my weight on the climbing line. How else would I make these cuts? I could not go out any further in order to use two hands, because the limb would break. I could maybe use my handsaw, but my 200t has a farther reach. (Plus, from experience, the handsaw causes me more accidents than a chainsaw, cut myself many times with a handsaw, never with a chainsaw, been working in tree care since I was 15 or 16 years old, I'm 33 now, full time climber for 12 years now).
How else could I make those cuts? Pole saw maybe? Put in a redirect and maybe get a foot farther out? Okay... now plan on doing 60 to 100 cuts in this tree, and do all those cuts with two hands only?!.... the trimming time just tripled. Instead of a $500 trim job, it would have to be $1500. Then where are we? out of a job, because we don't get any of our bids.
It's hard enough bidding against someone that bid cheap because they are going to do a real fast topping job, verses our proper thinning.
I not saying do something dangerous, because it will save you time. I do not feel my one handed use is dangerous the way I use it. Not at all dangerous. I am not "evaluating the risk" as others have stated. Using it far out and away from my body, with no rope near it and no legs under it, the saw is being used safely.
I like to see that people are being instructed to use two hands. Because I've seen new climbers trying to use one hand in most of their cutting sitiuations. This is the wrong reason. They are often doing it because they feel it looks like they are experienced and are basically being a "cowboy". Very stupid to use one hand when your other hand is in reach of the saw, or if that hand is not needed for another task.
I don't see how a productive climber with lots of experience can say that one handed saw use can never be used. I just don't see how.
These forums are a good way for people to act like they have experience, when they really aren't. They have SOME climbing experience and have had safty training. With the information they have, they act as though they know everything and try to give advice to everyone.
Reminds me of activist in college. They know a little bit about something, but they can put lots of energy into the "cause" without really knowing everything about it.
I just don't see how you can say one handed use, should NEVER be used.
I think you started this thread, not to honestly discuss this professionally. You did it to start a fight.
And that's fine I guess, maybe you need to get some frustration out.
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Very stupid to use one hand when your other hand is in reach of the saw, or if that hand is not needed for another task.
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good point you bring up there....if im one handing its because the other hand is doing something else.....no one handing just for the sake of it
Very stupid to use one hand when your other hand is in reach of the saw, or if that hand is not needed for another task.
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good point you bring up there....if im one handing its because the other hand is doing something else.....no one handing just for the sake of it
Mangoes
Participating member
- Location
- Greater Toronto Area
I've done all the bad stuff in my past, top, spur to prune, free climb to 60-70 feet then tie in. I was a product of my environment.
But I have tried to evolve, and progress to be different than I was. As of last August I began recording situations whereby I used a chainsaw with one hand. And I tell you all I'm doing very well.
The issue can be compared to auto racing (I think) and if you can cut the corners here and there, you'll gain an edge on time and convenience. Sometimes when a WRC rally car cuts a corner a little too tight..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUuWDzS7p30
But I have tried to evolve, and progress to be different than I was. As of last August I began recording situations whereby I used a chainsaw with one hand. And I tell you all I'm doing very well.
The issue can be compared to auto racing (I think) and if you can cut the corners here and there, you'll gain an edge on time and convenience. Sometimes when a WRC rally car cuts a corner a little too tight..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUuWDzS7p30
- Location
- Keswick
I really enjoyed reading this whole disscussion from start to finish. "A 6.5lb 192t feels like a Zubat with a muffler..." that was my favourite
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
Dang Roger... that looks like a tough way to lower a chunk!
Instead of going on a cruisade to try to stop one-handing. I think it would be nice to try to get all tree crews to wear HARDHATS.
It's amazing how many people don't even wear hardhats, still today. I see it all the time.
It doesn't take much to bust a head open.
I bet 1/4 to 1/3 of the companies around here, don't wear hardhats. Just a baseball cap and maybe a pair of sunglasses. I see guys in shorts too.
And saw chaps would be nice to promote as well.
It's amazing how many people don't even wear hardhats, still today. I see it all the time.
It doesn't take much to bust a head open.
I bet 1/4 to 1/3 of the companies around here, don't wear hardhats. Just a baseball cap and maybe a pair of sunglasses. I see guys in shorts too.
And saw chaps would be nice to promote as well.
RogerM
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Louisville,KY USA
I'd like to offer a course in sign language. I know a lot
of people who won't be hearing a word I say in 15 years.
of people who won't be hearing a word I say in 15 years.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/treejamie/saw%20cut/DSC00251.jpg
I've posted it before and this was a saw cut caused by one handed operation. Using the saw in my left hand on teh right side of my body while holding the branh peg. saw jammed, backed off and blipped the throttle, chain caught edge of cut and pulled itself along the branch.
You live you learn. hand is back to full strength
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/treejamie/saw%20cut/DSC00267.jpg
Thats the extent of the cut after i had just had the stitches out, my hand is now a normal size and doing well.
Blanket statements dont work, all accidents are causd by people...
dit: http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/treejamie/saw%20cut/scar141006.jpg the scar has faded a bit since that picture but thats the general gist of it all
Jamie
(pain is temporary, glorys forever and chicks dig scars)
I've posted it before and this was a saw cut caused by one handed operation. Using the saw in my left hand on teh right side of my body while holding the branh peg. saw jammed, backed off and blipped the throttle, chain caught edge of cut and pulled itself along the branch.
You live you learn. hand is back to full strength
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/treejamie/saw%20cut/DSC00267.jpg
Thats the extent of the cut after i had just had the stitches out, my hand is now a normal size and doing well.
Blanket statements dont work, all accidents are causd by people...
dit: http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/treejamie/saw%20cut/scar141006.jpg the scar has faded a bit since that picture but thats the general gist of it all
Jamie
(pain is temporary, glorys forever and chicks dig scars)
- Location
- Madison, Wi
That cut looks very familiar to the one i had.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
The more we learn from accidents the better we become. Many of pointed out the inherent dangers in this line of work. This drives the point of minimizing the risks by learning safe techniques and using some fundamental gear to protect from injuries.
I watched a guy cut his thumb clean off when I was a carpenter. The practice back then was to jam a wedge into the guard to keep it "out of the way" and maintain productivity. Lost time, productivity and a career ruined. Top it off with increased Worker's comp premiums and you gotta wonder was there any gain??
The onus on the estimator is to sell a safe job, not just price to beat the hacks.
IMHO...
I watched a guy cut his thumb clean off when I was a carpenter. The practice back then was to jam a wedge into the guard to keep it "out of the way" and maintain productivity. Lost time, productivity and a career ruined. Top it off with increased Worker's comp premiums and you gotta wonder was there any gain??
The onus on the estimator is to sell a safe job, not just price to beat the hacks.
IMHO...
TC
Participating member
[ QUOTE ]
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/treejamie/saw%20cut/DSC00251.jpg
I've posted it before and this was a saw cut caused by one handed operation. Using the saw in my left hand on teh right side of my body while holding the branh peg. saw jammed, backed off and blipped the throttle, chain caught edge of cut and pulled itself along the branch.
You live you learn.
Jamie
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Good post,
Sorry you had to cut yourself to find out why one handing is dangerous.
Good to see all is well and your hand healed ok.
X-man,
I totally agree, everyone in treework should be wearing an approved hardhat, eye and ear protection in fact anyone not wearing an approved hardhat is not a professional arborist/treeclimber, they are an amateur. Chinstrap essential if climbing - Petzl ecrin roc etc.
To even think of carrying out tree operations without a proper hardhat is foolhardy and ignorant.
I cant think of one reason why people doing treework should not wear a hardhat or climbing helmet.
People have to wake up and decide wether they want this industry to move forward and become safer for treeworkers.
Chainsaw protection for legs is a big problem.
The temperature thing is a huge obstacle at the moment.
Chainsaw pants are just too hot in many places round the world. Especially in the summer months in temperate regions.
Stihl, Husqvarna, Pfanner and Sip need to get their act together and come up with a new breed of chainsaw protection for legs which can be worn in hot weather.
One handed use of a chainsaw has to be stamped out if this industry is to move forward and minimise the risks in an inherently dangerous job.
To do this we dont ban it.
What we have to do is make two handed use of a saw compulsory at all times.
This will happen, it already is within some of the more safety concious companies.
When this is done we can start working on having 2 attachment points in the tree at all times. Same as industrial rope access industry. That is for the future. It will happen. We are too controlled by commercial pressures at the moment. But there are already some progressive tree companies in Europe experimenting with this idea at the moment.
You can never eliminate the risk of death and injury from our job, but you can significantly minimise the risk of an accident, if you take all the appropriate measures to do so.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/treejamie/saw%20cut/DSC00251.jpg
I've posted it before and this was a saw cut caused by one handed operation. Using the saw in my left hand on teh right side of my body while holding the branh peg. saw jammed, backed off and blipped the throttle, chain caught edge of cut and pulled itself along the branch.
You live you learn.
Jamie
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Good post,
Sorry you had to cut yourself to find out why one handing is dangerous.
Good to see all is well and your hand healed ok.
X-man,
I totally agree, everyone in treework should be wearing an approved hardhat, eye and ear protection in fact anyone not wearing an approved hardhat is not a professional arborist/treeclimber, they are an amateur. Chinstrap essential if climbing - Petzl ecrin roc etc.
To even think of carrying out tree operations without a proper hardhat is foolhardy and ignorant.
I cant think of one reason why people doing treework should not wear a hardhat or climbing helmet.
People have to wake up and decide wether they want this industry to move forward and become safer for treeworkers.
Chainsaw protection for legs is a big problem.
The temperature thing is a huge obstacle at the moment.
Chainsaw pants are just too hot in many places round the world. Especially in the summer months in temperate regions.
Stihl, Husqvarna, Pfanner and Sip need to get their act together and come up with a new breed of chainsaw protection for legs which can be worn in hot weather.
One handed use of a chainsaw has to be stamped out if this industry is to move forward and minimise the risks in an inherently dangerous job.
To do this we dont ban it.
What we have to do is make two handed use of a saw compulsory at all times.
This will happen, it already is within some of the more safety concious companies.
When this is done we can start working on having 2 attachment points in the tree at all times. Same as industrial rope access industry. That is for the future. It will happen. We are too controlled by commercial pressures at the moment. But there are already some progressive tree companies in Europe experimenting with this idea at the moment.
You can never eliminate the risk of death and injury from our job, but you can significantly minimise the risk of an accident, if you take all the appropriate measures to do so.
I haven't the time lately to read all the posts on this topic. So please forgive if I say something others have.
I wrote a report on this issue a few years ago. Hardly light reading, which is why I don't wish to get involved re-iterting what i've already said:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_htm/2001/crr01402.htm
I started out climbing with a 3 ply rope, suicide saddle, 3 karabiners and an 024 woodboss with lanyard. That was it for about 5 years. Because it was a rear handled saw, you had to be more considered in its use one handed. I did plenty of cut and chuck too.
Top handled saws are too easy to abuse. It would be a shame to see them off the shelves (which can easily happen the more we up the accident stats), because they are useful at the extremities of branches, when keeping a distance from hairy situations, and when using a saw on drooping limbs. The other excuses for using a saw one handed are lame in my opinion, and a convenient excuse for lack of skill and poor work positioning (as a general rule based on observation).
The biggest culprit for injury IMHO is 'cut and chuck' - I've never done it in 15 years since I learned how easy it was not to. I won't be swayed otherwise, it doesn't slow me down, and I won't have to worry about the pain/dysfunction from the horrific injuries that are likely to be caused from the technique.
Live fast die young is one thing, live fast live an (not so)old age of pain and dysfunction is something else.
I wrote a report on this issue a few years ago. Hardly light reading, which is why I don't wish to get involved re-iterting what i've already said:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_htm/2001/crr01402.htm
I started out climbing with a 3 ply rope, suicide saddle, 3 karabiners and an 024 woodboss with lanyard. That was it for about 5 years. Because it was a rear handled saw, you had to be more considered in its use one handed. I did plenty of cut and chuck too.
Top handled saws are too easy to abuse. It would be a shame to see them off the shelves (which can easily happen the more we up the accident stats), because they are useful at the extremities of branches, when keeping a distance from hairy situations, and when using a saw on drooping limbs. The other excuses for using a saw one handed are lame in my opinion, and a convenient excuse for lack of skill and poor work positioning (as a general rule based on observation).
The biggest culprit for injury IMHO is 'cut and chuck' - I've never done it in 15 years since I learned how easy it was not to. I won't be swayed otherwise, it doesn't slow me down, and I won't have to worry about the pain/dysfunction from the horrific injuries that are likely to be caused from the technique.
Live fast die young is one thing, live fast live an (not so)old age of pain and dysfunction is something else.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
OK, again I'll say without equivocating, I'm for both hands on the saw... but think about what you guys are saying.
Frankly, I don't want treework to be the domain of any nitwit who can parrot a trainer and wear body armor. One of the most attractive aspects of treework is that not just anybody can do it. Safety is a state of mind, it's good judgement, it's experience... it's having made a mistake or two along the way. You can't legislate it...
Why does everything have to be as safe as sitting on an overstuffed chair? The fact the tree care is somewhat dangerous is what attracts the special sort of people that you see right here on this site. Treework isn't for everybody, thank God. The ability to accept and mitigate risk in stressful situations is a rare quality. I for one would rather not see tree climbing diluted by legions of mindless trainees toting half an annual salary of safety gear.
If you really want to make this stuff safe, give the climber the TIME it takes to do the job right... not the rules. You can make all the rules you want and put the responsibilty all on the climber to follow them and they will still be pressed to do jobs faster and faster and people will still get hurt.
Nobody wants to get hurt and they will behave safely if you simply give them the opportunity. The more experienced a climber becomes, the better their judgement becomes. Over time they learn when a rule works and when it doesn't. That's what makes tree climbing more art than technology. I have no qualms about educating people about danger, in fact, I think that's exactly how you help people be safer... but stating that someone isn't professional because they don't do things your way is out of line... no one here has a lock on good judgement. Everybody's experience is different.
I apologize if you find this offensive, that's not my intent. It's just that everything I like about life is constantly under assault by people who want to regulate it to the nth degree and make it so safe a fool could do it.
Life is not safe, it's not supposed to be.
Frankly, I don't want treework to be the domain of any nitwit who can parrot a trainer and wear body armor. One of the most attractive aspects of treework is that not just anybody can do it. Safety is a state of mind, it's good judgement, it's experience... it's having made a mistake or two along the way. You can't legislate it...
Why does everything have to be as safe as sitting on an overstuffed chair? The fact the tree care is somewhat dangerous is what attracts the special sort of people that you see right here on this site. Treework isn't for everybody, thank God. The ability to accept and mitigate risk in stressful situations is a rare quality. I for one would rather not see tree climbing diluted by legions of mindless trainees toting half an annual salary of safety gear.
If you really want to make this stuff safe, give the climber the TIME it takes to do the job right... not the rules. You can make all the rules you want and put the responsibilty all on the climber to follow them and they will still be pressed to do jobs faster and faster and people will still get hurt.
Nobody wants to get hurt and they will behave safely if you simply give them the opportunity. The more experienced a climber becomes, the better their judgement becomes. Over time they learn when a rule works and when it doesn't. That's what makes tree climbing more art than technology. I have no qualms about educating people about danger, in fact, I think that's exactly how you help people be safer... but stating that someone isn't professional because they don't do things your way is out of line... no one here has a lock on good judgement. Everybody's experience is different.
I apologize if you find this offensive, that's not my intent. It's just that everything I like about life is constantly under assault by people who want to regulate it to the nth degree and make it so safe a fool could do it.
Life is not safe, it's not supposed to be.
TC
Participating member
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_htm/2001/crr01402.htm
Top handled saws are too easy to abuse. It would be a shame to see them off the shelves (which can easily happen the more we up the accident stats), because they are useful at the extremities of branches, when keeping a distance from hairy situations, and when using a saw on drooping limbs. The other excuses for using a saw one handed are lame in my opinion, and a convenient excuse for lack of skill and poor work positioning (as a general rule based on observation).
The biggest culprit for injury IMHO is 'cut and chuck' - I've never done it in 15 years since I learned how easy it was not to. I won't be swayed otherwise, it doesn't slow me down, and I won't have to worry about the pain/dysfunction from the horrific injuries that are likely to be caused from the technique.
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Thanks Lazarus2, very informative.
I still avoid using the saw one handed even at extremities and in high risk of being struck by compressed/tension branches or timber. There is always an alternative to resorting to use the saw one handed. Even if it means taking a few extra minutes to find another way.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_htm/2001/crr01402.htm
Top handled saws are too easy to abuse. It would be a shame to see them off the shelves (which can easily happen the more we up the accident stats), because they are useful at the extremities of branches, when keeping a distance from hairy situations, and when using a saw on drooping limbs. The other excuses for using a saw one handed are lame in my opinion, and a convenient excuse for lack of skill and poor work positioning (as a general rule based on observation).
The biggest culprit for injury IMHO is 'cut and chuck' - I've never done it in 15 years since I learned how easy it was not to. I won't be swayed otherwise, it doesn't slow me down, and I won't have to worry about the pain/dysfunction from the horrific injuries that are likely to be caused from the technique.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Lazarus2, very informative.
I still avoid using the saw one handed even at extremities and in high risk of being struck by compressed/tension branches or timber. There is always an alternative to resorting to use the saw one handed. Even if it means taking a few extra minutes to find another way.
TC
Participating member
[ QUOTE ]
I have no qualms about educating people about danger, in fact, I think that's exactly how you help people be safer... but stating that someone isn't professional because they don't do things your way is out of line
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Carrying out tree work operations without an approved Hardhat or climbing helmet with chinstrap shows to everyone that you are not a professional.
This is not rocket science its simple to understand.
I think most people here at Treebuzz would agree with this statement.
If you are not wearing a hardhat then why are you charging people for a professional service?
The fact that we are even discussing this in 2007 is beyond a joke!
No hardhat/no climbing helmet with chinstrap = amateur.
End of Story
I have no qualms about educating people about danger, in fact, I think that's exactly how you help people be safer... but stating that someone isn't professional because they don't do things your way is out of line
[/ QUOTE ]
Carrying out tree work operations without an approved Hardhat or climbing helmet with chinstrap shows to everyone that you are not a professional.
This is not rocket science its simple to understand.
I think most people here at Treebuzz would agree with this statement.
If you are not wearing a hardhat then why are you charging people for a professional service?
The fact that we are even discussing this in 2007 is beyond a joke!
No hardhat/no climbing helmet with chinstrap = amateur.
End of Story
- Location
- Canada
Blinky, I agree with you 100%, the only other thing that could be said is that the people that continually to do high risk techniques are more than likely to blame other people when they get injured. We are living in a time that makes it easier to blame others for our misfortune than take the responsibiliy for our own actions.
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