Petzl guideline on choked carabiner anchor for spar work

[Webfoot]

There is a caution symbol, don’t think they are recommending it.

But they removed the cinched carabiner configuration entirely, suggesting that despite the warning this is better? Am I misinterpreting this?

 

[moss]

But they removed the cinched carabiner configuration entirely, suggesting that despite the warning this is better? Am I misinterpreting this?

I'd ask Petzl.

 

[Brocky]

I’m not familiar with the product shown, maybe it can slide if unloaded like a carabiner, but no worries of side loading?

 

[Webfoot]

I’m not familiar with the product shown, maybe it can slide if unloaded like a carabiner, but no worries of side loading?

The reason for the caution is given above the image.

The ZIGZAG, installed on a choked anchor, serves as the belay system as well as the evacuation system.


Quite simple in appearance, this configuration requires the arborist to choose between two risks when positioning his ZIGZAG.
- Low ZIGZAG setup (knee level): if the positioning lanyard breaks, risk of a significant fall (impact force greater than 6 kN).

- High ZIGZAG setup (close to the positioning lanyard): risk of simultaneously cutting the two belay systems.

 

[moss]

The reason for the caution is given above the image.

A competent tree worker has no problem or safety issues placing the anchor for their main rope (whatever the anchor configuration is) just below their lanyard while chunking down a spar. Petzl is doing due diligence and covering their legal butt.
-AJ

 

[Stumpsprouts]

Petzl has replaced the original content with this:

With good reason or to maximize profit? I leave the reader to decide.

I struggle to understand what the point is of the new page, which has an addl diagram and explanation on the link, thanks for sharing. It’s basically saying that keeping your zigzag cinched at your knees basically runs the risk of you falling a great deal if you cut your lanyard, but if you have it up a bit higher, like a few inches below your lanyard, you could cut both systems at once. Who the hell wrote this garbage?? lol

 

[Matias]

Definitely just liability CYA

 

[moss]

I struggle to understand what the point is of the new page, which has an addl diagram and explanation on the link, thanks for sharing. It’s basically saying that keeping your zigzag cinched at your knees basically runs the risk of you falling a great deal if you cut your lanyard, but if you have it up a bit higher, like a few inches below your lanyard, you could cut both systems at once. Who the hell wrote this garbage?? lol

The Petzl technical writer is between a rock and a hard place apparently.

 

[ghostice]

I guess also there's chokes and there's chokes - most of the illustrations I've seen where a biner is choked show a stem or branch the size of a telephone pole (pas de probleme?) - not one like shown in this removal. So once again maybe, blanket rules are the easy way out? I like the idea of specifying some minimum size limb for a biner choke as "good practice" or "possible option". And to be fair - most trunks get bigger the further down the stem you go, so the "hazard" lessens, yes? Cheers all.

 

[Muggs]

Blanket rules are for children and imbeciles. Devoid of nuance, they cater exclusively to the lowest common denominator. I personally do not treat manufacturer recommendations as gospel. I believe they often reflect some combination of internal company culture and virtue signaling, but at the heart of all of it is liability.

If a company has done plenty of testing and determined that x is safe (enough), but they know that 4 of their competitors already recommend against it, that's a big hill to climb for 1 or 2 people internally to fight for the official recommendation that x gets written up on company documentation as being "safe". Far easier to just follow the current of what everyone else is doing. Very few are willing to stick their neck out like that.

 

[Matias]

Our chipper winch hook broke and just got replaced with the double action isc wizard, a 70kn steel biner, and it gets abused horrifically. Still operates as smoothly as the day it went into service over a year ago. @Muggs said it absolutely perfectly. I would literally just restate each of the above listed points. Liability, nuance, etc.

 

[chris_girard]

I'd ask Petzl.

I contacted Petzl last year about the change, and they had no idea why someone in the technical department changed it to the Petzl "Ejaculation" device which I found kind of weird? Petzl still shows the Zillion in a biner choked configuration.

I choke my spar trees daily with a biner, Zigzag and Chicane and will continue to do so, down to a 4"-6" dia with absolutely no worries. Perfectly safe, no matter what others may say about it,

 

[Muggs]

they had no idea why someone in the technical department changed it to the Petzl "Ejaculation" device which I found kind of weird?

Yessir, won't forget the name of that device anytime soon, eh

 

[chris_girard]

I demoed it for a week for TCIA a few years back and honestly wasn't impressed and I'm a big Petzl fan.

 

[ghostice]

Came across this UK HSE document on carabiners (Karabiners??) FYI.