Oldschool vs Newschool, and avoiding brused egos.

J,

You're confusing ANSI A300 standards with the fact that the ISA is just the secretariat. The ISA has no enforcement power or authority about practices.

What a company does on their own has no reflection past their work...not back to Champaign. If your boss or a tree service doesn't do proper work any grief should go back to them.

It is too bad that their is hypocrisy in the world.
 
Of what use is obtaining and maintaining your ISA certification if it does not guarantee a certain degree of high quality work standards to the clients that hire you because of it?

Does them being a toothless secretariat explain why CA's can get away with low quality high profit butchery without losing their certifications?

Is it simply a matter of paying your dues and obtaining your CEU's and just wearing labels on your sleeve while delivering crap to your clients?

Jomoco
 
You're blending two different things.

Being the ANSI secretariat means that the mundane issues of paper tracking etc. is their job...that's one issue.

The other is the Certified Arborist. That is completely separate.

Do you understand that one is only thinly related to the other when it comes to any sort of enforcement?

Where do you put the responsibility for doing the right thing? Company owner...sales rep...climber...or some distant organization? How does a parent get blamed for what their children do...when the children are adults and allegedly grown and responsible?

Is it the responsibility of the ISA to make sure that every tree care action is done according to standards or BMPs? If so...that is a real Nanny State that you want. There are soooo many civil laws that the State can't/doesn't enforce even though the State has the authority to enforce them.

It gets really old...at least to me...to hear you dump on the ISA for all of the ills of treework done in the world. When did the ISA become Mommy and Daddy?
 
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It gets really old...at least to me...to hear you dump on the ISA for all of the ills of treework done in the world. When did the ISA become Mommy and Daddy?

[/ QUOTE ]

When they assert to city municipalities, state and federal agencies that only ISA certified arborists be allowed to bid and obtain contracts from them.

What happens to licensed and certified electrical contractors, builders, iron workers whose work doesn't meet state and federal codes Tom?

Do their licenses and certifications get yanked?

I'm not dumping on fly by night small fry tree services. I'm dumping on CA's butchering trees, gaffing live trees, with impunity from the very agency that certified them and sold them labels for their uniforms and stickers for their work vehicles.

Jomoco
 
Sorry Ropeshield I should have been more specific yet again, a bad habit of mine. I am also a Hort apprentice, and likely will never get my red seal cert simply because of how apprenticeships work, I cashed my chips in with arboriculture. I am finished my in school and feel 100% competent that i could pass the test, but due to hours and no one to sign a vouching letter (based around my two old jobs) there is no opportunity.

Now the reason I rip on horts is in the field, I have never met any that are humble, aside from at school where everyone is learning(and one designer I work with on occasion), and that is where it ends. I know there is way more to learn, study and keep up on, it is a hard course and they deserve recognition, just like us. Maybe you aren't like this, I don't know, it's immature of me to paint them all with the same brush. It could be argued that I am being a hypocrite with this very thread in saying these things. But I am merely saying these things out of experience. I wish people would prove me wrong.

and Phil, I hear you 100% man, that is exactly what I am talking about. Sometimes it is best to know both sides of an argument before cashing in your chips and riding the same side every time, the main thing I have learned about trees is most things are grey zones, what's good for the goose may not be good for the gander. It comes down to personal preference and how much recent research you are willing to do and study up on.

I will just read on with this argument though, I feel like I am learning. haha
 
A fact is a fact. Easy to stand on, correct 100% of the time. The ego problem i think has basis in the lack of fact. If you don't know, you HAVE to stand tall with your opinion. The less secure you are with your opinion, the taller you stand.

I agree with Tom about "old school". The more I know, the less I know I know. Nuts right?

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parry.gif
 
Let's not forget that time a relative thing. If I take 2 years from its inception to change from a taughtline to a hitchclimber self tending setup (which it did) and it takes you 1 year to change from whatever to a hitchclimber or RW or whatever...

and you have been in the biz 2 years and I have been in for 40 years then it took you half (1 of 2 years) of your career to change where as it took me 2 of 40 years or one twentieth of my career to change.

Therefore relatively you are the old schooler as I changed much more quickly?
 
I worked for my Dad for way to many years and thought he was old school. In hind site he taught me more about how to do the work than anyone. Know I am that man, and I teach the new guys what they need to know, then they refine the own work methods. There is no one way to do this job.

My collage professor said: "Old tree men never die they just get in the way"

He was referring to my father. He was only half right. Take what you can from us old timers and make yourself better.
 
Just to play the old school devil's advocate, how many of the fancy new school climber's hitches can be tied with one hand like the old school tautline hitch can?

Jomoco
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just to play the old school devil's advocate, how many of the fancy new school climber's hitches can be tied with one hand like the old school tautline hitch can?

[/ QUOTE ]

No idea--maybe close to zero, practically speaking.

What is an old school tautline? I do 3 loops down counterclockwise, then 2 loops up clockwise. A person maybe being kind called it a modified prussik. Is oldschool th all in one direction?
 
I'm kinda in between...been climbing for 18 yrs...i'm 35. I have to say i have learned the most from the older climbers i have had the privilege to work with. Many techniques and methods have been tweaked and improved upon...no doubt...but the core principals remain the same. I have the most respect for the men who have pioneered the tree industry so we have the understanding and technology that we have today.

I have also rock climbed for the past 19 yrs. I feel in this regard there are many similaritys. I have had the privilege to climb with Steve Arsunalt and Henry Barber many times...they have shown me that experience and technique outweigh youth any day.

When i was a teen i learned how to rig and remove trees from a man who was 67 at the time. He could footlock 60+ feet with no prusik like it was nothing. He had been climbing since he was 16. I am greatful for everything he taught me.

Improvements will always be made and there will always be a better way of doing something right around the corner but i strongly feel that respect is always due to those who came before us.
 
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Just to play the old school devil's advocate, how many of the fancy new school climber's hitches can be tied with one hand like the old school tautline hitch can?

[/ QUOTE ]

No idea--maybe close to zero, practically speaking.

What is an old school tautline? I do 3 loops down counterclockwise, then 2 loops up clockwise. A person maybe being kind called it a modified prussik. Is oldschool th all in one direction?

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Two down, one up Guy. Commonly known as a three finger monkey fist.

Three down, two up is a five finger monkey fist.

Of course I'm not suggesting anyone use either of them. But the three finger can be tied and dressed very quickly with one hand. And should be known for that reason in case of emergencies like a broken or cut hand combined with a need to get out of a treen for whatever reason. Cut climbing line, ropes too short, or whatever.

Just an old schooler's stubborn opinion for what little it's worth.

Jomoco
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[ QUOTE ]
Let's not forget that time a relative thing. If I take 2 years from its inception to change from a taughtline to a hitchclimber self tending setup (which it did) and it takes you 1 year to change from whatever to a hitchclimber or RW or whatever...

and you have been in the biz 2 years and I have been in for 40 years then it took you half (1 of 2 years) of your career to change where as it took me 2 of 40 years or one twentieth of my career to change.

Therefore relatively you are the old schooler as I changed much more quickly?

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Ha ha ...very good point
 
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When they assert to city municipalities, state and federal agencies that only ISA certified arborists be allowed to bid and obtain contracts from them.

What happens to licensed and certified electrical contractors, builders, iron workers whose work doesn't meet state and federal codes Tom?

Do their licenses and certifications get yanked?

I'm not dumping on fly by night small fry tree services. I'm dumping on CA's butchering trees, gaffing live trees, with impunity from the very agency that certified them and sold them labels for their uniforms and stickers for their work vehicles.

Jomoco

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You really think the ISA has any influence about who munis hire?
The real problem is that the CA program is over diluted, and it takes no practical experience to achieve it.
 
I know for a fact that the City of San Diego as well as The San Diego Zoo only lets CA's either bid on or obtain contracts for them.

Both do a very good job of keeping close tabs on the work done for them.

I've no doubt that the majority of CA's do decent work that's easily up to ANSI standards for pruning here in my area.

But I also have no doubt that there are enough CA's doing crappy work in this area as well that it's a problem.

The very best work done here is not done by CA's, but rather family run outfits that have been around since the 60's and 70's.

Jomoco
 
Uh yeah, so they only hire CA's. Big deal.
You said the ISA asserted to them that only CAs be hired.
That is the hiring authority's choice, not an assertion made by the ISA.

And there are probably more non CA's doing crappy work than there are CAs doing crappy work. Sounds to me like you you've got an axe to grind, but you have no idea who with.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The real problem is that the CA program is over diluted, and it takes no practical experience to achieve it.

[/ QUOTE ]or to keep it--online seminars keeps spooning pap into muni arbs at their desks, right where they do not need to be! Read up on root stress in the latest--not! but i digress,,,

Of course I'm not suggesting anyone use either of them (tautlines)."

Why not? O and you never did say--do those knots change directions, or not?
If a 20-something dissed my knot, that would not be prudent. Gets me everywhere in the tree anybody needs to go, though I would not mind trying the vt again to see if it sticks next time!
tongue.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The real problem is that the CA program is over diluted, and it takes no practical experience to achieve it.

[/ QUOTE ]or to keep it--online seminars keeps spooning pap into muni arbs at their desks, right where they do not need to be! Read up on root stress in the latest--not! but i digress,,,

Of course I'm not suggesting anyone use either of them (tautlines)."

Why not? O and you never did say--do those knots change directions, or not?
If a 20-something dissed my knot, that would not be prudent. Gets me everywhere in the tree anybody needs to go, though I would not mind trying the vt again to see if it sticks next time!
tongue.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

No Guy, counter clockwise, down and up.

I don't recommend my methods or techniques to anyone other than use of cambium saving devices and cabling alignment tubes.

I still climb with a three finger monkey fist, occasionally a five finger MF if I'm in close proximity to high power lines. The three slips a bit if not dressed often. But I like a little slippage at times myself. I don't like very grabby climbing hitches unless I'm close to high power period.

I like to let my work speak for itself. To me it's very gratifying that work still finds me from people that know me and my work for decades now. It's just one of the many reasons I refuse to get a new tooltruck. It's widely known and recognized throughout San Diego County to this very day.

Jomoco
 
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