Oak Removal - I need your help

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... it looks like there is little to no root system on the compression side of the trunk and large cavities on the tension side. Break out that steel probe and get a feel for the depth of the cavities, sound with a rubber mallet, yank on the tree with a rope, excavate around the root crown to get a better idea what kind of decay is going on just below grade.

If you can post pics after the RCX that would be sweet!

jp:D

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I agree with Jon and RopeShield--find out how bad the base is rotted BEFORE you even think about what to do about it. Guying/tethering to other trees can mitigate the risk acceptably. Pruning alone to correct lean might have to remove a lot of benefit.

Prescription before diagnosis is completed = Malpractice!

If you are paid to manage the trees then you are doing right by first seeing the whole tree and all the options.
 
To follow up to Guy's good post, is there a good risk assessing consulting arborist to hire for an evaluation?

Public safety and liability are big factors. These kids' parents are likely paying obscene amounts of money to attend, and should have a reasonably safe developed area in which to move about. Is this a shade tree under which student congregate? What are the weather factors that are at work?



I agree with the guys that say that there isn't too much to working out of a bucket compared to climbing, if you have solid, flat ground, and can piece it out in small free-falling bits.

Of course there are subtleties, and dangers. Good overall safe work practices and a prudent approach might make it very reasonable to rent a bucket. Of course you work for a university, not self-employed, so it has to be within the confines of your training, and industry standards, etc.


A tow-behind lift can be had cheaply. I've seen 50' and 61' Working Height tow behinds for about $150 a day. Bigger self-propelled ones can be delivered on a semi/ ramp trailer. A bit more, but not as much as hiring it out maybe, all things considered.

Let us know what you find out, and any more pictures and info you might have.
 
The photos of the root crown provide good evidence that this is a hazard tree. If it were away from targets it would be fine but over a busy student parking lot it is not acceptable. Remove it and plant more trees.
 
Man, this is so helpful. I knew it would be.

So my next step before deciding on remove vs. preserve is to inspect roots.

If I haven't troubled you too much already, can I trouble you to advise on how to do a proper root excavation? (I've already got the "GREEN" part of the "GREENHORN" forehead tattoo finished. The "HORN" is coming later.)

I guess some of you folks do this with an air spade, but I don't have that capability.

How does one do this carefully? Just very slowly? Small tools, small bites of soil? Work as slowly as possibly like an archeological dig?

THANK YOU TREEBUZZERS.
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The least gear-intensive method I know of uses a garden hose turned down to a trickle and a wet/dry shop vac. Basically you make mud and then suck it up. It'll be really slow on a tree that size. I've only done it on much much smaller trees. Seems crude but it is effective.
 
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...How does one do this carefully? Just very slowly? Small tools, small bites of soil? Work as slowly as possibly like an archeological dig?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes you have the idea and no you don't need to find a consultant. Start prying the soil off the trunk with shovel first, then trowel. Remove loose stuff only around cavities and measure them. If a hose is handy that is great for the finish work.

Never thot of a shop vac...too heavy and noisy imo...just scoop out a swale on the downhill side to get drainage. i carried in 5 gal buckets on the last rcx i did; that worked.

Don't break barriers. Measure, document, take detailed pics!

INSPECTION
A basic issue in basic tree risk assessment is the need to distinguish tree health from tree structure. Tree workers and tree owners may see that the leaves are a nice shade of green, and conclude that the tree is safe. However, arborists understand that healthy foliage is not a reliable indicator of structural integrity. Judging a tree’s strength by how it looks at first is like judging a book by its cover.
Tree structure, not appearance, is the major focus of tree risk assessment. Visual tree assessment must be combined with hearing, smelling, touch, and judgment. When inspecting trees, use a checklist and stick to that system so you do not miss anything that should be included in the level of assessment that you have agreed to do. Basic inspection includes the site, the roots, the trunk flare, the trunk, and the branches.
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Site. The tree's environment can lessen or increase risk of tree failure. If a tree is sheltered by other trees, it is more stable. Exposure to wind, snow, rain, and ice add to the loading that can cause tree failure. Saturated soil conditions and slope can also affect the risk of failure.
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Species. Identify the type of tree that you are asked to inspect. Different species have different strengths and susceptibilities. For instance, most oaks Quercus can carry greater loads on their limbs than willows Salix or poplars Populus, but oaks may be more likely to uproot. By taking notes and pictures of trees that have failed, you can know what to expect from similar species in similar conditions under similar strains. By sending your observations to the International Tree Failure Database, you can gain access to observations from arborists around the world.
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Shape. Look at the entire aboveground tree, checking for dead branches, sprawling branches that stick out from the rest of the crown, and overall branch structure. If the tree leans, determine whether the tree is adapting to that lean by growing branches in the opposite direction. If the top is curving back toward vertical, the lean is “self-correcting”.
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Roots. Check for obstructions to root growth, such as curbs and foundations and water. Look for signs of trenching, and check to see how water moves through the site. Use a soil probe to check the location and health of roots. You might tap on the roots with a mallet, listening for a hollow sound. If the sound is suspicious, you can either dig or angle a probe toward the bottom of the root. Since roots often rot from the bottom up, getting under them can give you valuable information.
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Trunk flare. A most vital area to inspect is the trunk flare, where the trunk expands or “flares” into the structural roots. If you cannot find the flare, remove mulch and soil and any small girdling roots until it is visible. Roots that encircle all or part of the trunk are known as stem-girdling roots. These not only damage plant tissues and circulation, but they can impair stability. They are commonly found on container-grown trees, but can occur on almost any tree. After the end of a root is cut off, new roots can branch off sideways. This growth in time may girdle the stem.
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Trunk. If there is a hole in the trunk or root collar, you can gain information about that cavity by probing with a tool such as a screwdriver or a tile probe, a long, narrow fiberglass rod with a “T” handle. A ruler or yardstick will give you some idea how extensive the cavity is. If the trunk sounds very hollow but there is no soft spot or opening to probe and measure, then more advanced equipment may be used to determine how much sound wood is in the stem. Drilling and coring can measure the sound wood in one small area, so many holes must be made to get a picture of the whole tree. Drilling and coring invade healthy tissue, potentially spreading decay and decreasing stability. Practicing on fallen trees can provide valuable experience in the use of these methods.
Devices using radar and sound waves are not as invasive, but they cost a lot more.

Trunks can also be tested by pulling on the tree, using the Statics Integrated Method. All of these methods and devices require experience to interpret the results well enough to communicate the risk to the tree owner. Deciding how closely to inspect a tree is always a professional judgment, different for each assignment and each tree. Cavities over two-thirds of the diameter are sometimes considered “hazardous” and a reason for removal, but with close monitoring and care, trees with cavities over 80% of the diameter have been managed for many years.

pub ISA 2006
 
Guy,

My meeting has been postponed - boss is out today.

Fortunately, the parking lot is empty as the students are on spring break.

You didn't kill the thread! Thanks for your help and the attached file.

I'm hoping to do a RCX tomorrow. I'd do it immediately if I didn't have other plates spinning right now.

I'll post pictures back up on this thread as soon as I can get the work done.

***

In answer to some others' suggestions above for a removal procedure should that be the right course of action, I can't fell it back into the woods because of significant damage to surrounding trees. Only options are to piece it out, or crash it into the parking lot.

Cheers everybody...
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Get up that tree and cut it down . You got it . Bucket would slam it , but you can do it . Please cut that tree down . Somebody please cut that tree down . Please>
 
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R$obert, how'd it go? Sorry if I killed the thread. Here's an account of a very hollow white oak near two houses that was retained for 13 years before it declined.

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Interesting story Guy. It would be nice if your prescriptions added to the structural strength or even slowed down the loss of the structural strength of this 200+ year old white oak. Put me down as being a skeptic. Did the foliage look better? Yes it did. Was it structurally stronger or the pathogens slowed down by a significant percentage? I think it is highly unlikely. Would I want to live under it? Hell no.




BTW, the Wye Oak failed:
On Thursday evening, June 6, 2002 Maryland lost forever one of our oldest and most valued treasures, the Wye Oak tree.
A severe storm with high winds and saturating rains felled our beloved Wye Oak, Maryland's natural monument of almost 500 years of age.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~chesapeake/wye_oak_tree/wye_oak.html

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ok dan; next time i visit auburn ga i will bring my 4' probe and we will see how quickly you condemn your own hollow trees.

i agree that the tree in the story steadily declined, and further that my efforts 18 years ago were inadequate to make a lot of difference. and i said so, near the end.

nice pic of the wye (tho not too relevant to the current tree); where do you find that stuff?

o I get it now--the Giant tree had Laetiporus too...but its heartrot was old and wide and it had 360 degrees of root damage when they =developed the land so....Decay from Laetiporus or any crud can be monitored, and by reducing the load you reduce the risk.

They did not reduce the wye; in fact they added a lot of steel weight and stopped movement, all of which increased toppling risk. A very different kind of case.
 
I'll go after some tactics.

If you are removing the tree, your job will be much easier if you use spurs the whole time. No real need to go up there without them unless you are practicing. Getting used to spurs and also spurring out is a good lesson to have. Install a rope first and then spur up if you are nervous about spurring up the whole thing.

Be very cautious of barber-chairs on larger limb cuts. Piecing it down in small pieces like you talked about will avoid most of the danger but removing larger pieces of wood should still be done with caution.

Story in OR about gentleman getting killed when the top he was cutting decided to split before he could finish his cut. Flipline came tight as the tree split and he was crushed to death. Make sure your facecut or undercut is deep enough to do it's job. Also make sure your top cut is behind the undercut to ensure that your saw doesn't get taken with the piece when it snaps.

Finding someone who is willing and able to run the ground for you that knows their stuff would be a great idea. That way, they can see what you are doing and make suggestions so you don't have to break out your iphone and post a picture of what you want to do next!

Good luck and enjoy yourself!!
 
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I'm with the guys who say put her down in one fell swoop. It looks like in the picture it's leaning back to the woods and to the left towards the black jeep. I would put a notch in after sounding it with a rubber mallet and if it's not completely hollow set it in that way.

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Ditto!
 
Update: A first attempt at uncovering the root crown. I took the soil down 2-3" to where I could get a look and reach into the cavities in the root flare. Hardly an excavation, as I'm sort of feeling in the dark as to how to do it properly. I aimed to do less, not more, so as to insure against damaging stuff should the tree remain.

The base is hollow, and well beyond the 70% threshold. The buttress roots all have decay on the underside (thanks for that tip of what to look for, Blinky.)

There were lots of what appeared to be absorbing roots (adventitious?) growing through the cavities back towards the center of the trunk. I tried to be gentle with those, as I'm guessing the tree needs all the help it can get.

The parking lot side of the root crown, which is the tension side from the tree's natural lean, is in the worst shape. The compression side has a lot of decay, but not nearly as bad.

As you can see, the root zone is quite restricted by the asphalt. It's probably safe to say that large support roots were axed when the parking lot was built, and the original grade in the root zone was annihilated.

I climbed it today and took a few pictures of cavities from storm damage and decay. See below.

Given it's location, I'm leaning hard towards removal. The tree has obviously been in rough shape for a while, but given it's location, it doesn't seem to be acceptable to leave it as is, hoping for the best, since students park their cars nearby everyday. Although it's not a high traffic area of campus, there is enough traffic/targets to make it a genuine hazard.

Still haven't garnered the ear of those above me regarding this tree, but I'm hoping that my pictures and digging around will get their attention...They're not too used to somebody being so interested with the trees on campus.

What do you think?

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If you can see, evidence of borers on the tension side. Loose bark - you can see the chunk I peeled off - throughout the area in this picture.

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Compression side, towards the woods. Seems to be a lot more sound wood on this side, although there is a lot of decay on the back side of these buttress roots, visible from the cavities on the opposite side.

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