Nothing is completely safe

T

TMW

Location
OH
I talked to a friend this weekend that had a close call. They were about 60' up in, hip thrusting to get to a new work position. He was climbing on a single-sliding "D" saddle, using a split-tail system with two ball-lock type carabiners.

Somehow, one of the carabiners opened (the one attached to the split-tail) my friend fell about 6 feet or so, bouncing off of a few limbs and burning his hand a bit as he grabbed the rope. Fortunately he was able to arrest his fall and lanyard and re-attach the carabiner.

I used to think that this type of carabiner was the least likely to open, but it can still happen. Hindsight might indicate that you shouldn't have two carabiners bouncing together on a single "D" ring.

Clip-lock-inspect, and keep inspecting while you climb.

TMW
 
Good point Tim,

I always check my hardware, before making my nexted move. Wether it is visual or hand inspected.Crabiners tend to get turned sideways while crashing through the brush, and as they age, the action on the barrels become week and tend not to have the spring they used to have . I personally dont care for the ball lock biners, but thats my preference. I like the Climb High biners. They have a very positive action to them and a thick barrel, Compared to the HB Wales that I thought was the cats meow.

Greg
 
okay, I have a stupid question. Maybe this isn't the right place, but you are discussing two biners on one D-ring.

I have resisted split-tails for years due to economics and my own stubbornness. Today I bought my first-ever biners, a couple Petzl Williams and one Petzl modified D. I also got a split-tail.
I have been climbing with a single line and a single locking clip, one knot holding clip and my friction hitch. In order to reduce weight and bulk, I'm supposed to replace this setup with TWO biners and two knots? Plus I need to worry if my rope is going to come untied off the biner because the tail isn't used for my friction hitch? And now I'm not supposed to use two biners on on one D-ring? Just what is this 'advantage' of having all this extra stuff and all the extra possible failure points? I'm used to checking my clip and my friction hitch. Nothing else can come loose.
I now need to check two biners, my knot holding my rope to one biner, make sure my TWO ropes don't spin around on their respective biners, BOTH biners are attached to my D-rings, and my friction hitch. How is this supposed to make climbing easier? And don't tell me the junk about unhooking one side to go around a limb. I don't consider this any better than untying and retying my hitch (It practically ties itself!). Are there advantages that I am not seeing? Cause so far, I'm not seeing them.

Ready to go back to a single line system, perhaps using one biner instead of a locking clip to reduce weight and bulk.
 
Tim,

I'm glad your friend is around to tell his story. I use the same kind of biners and you can bet I'll keep a close eye on them from now on. I can see how slack forming in the system on each hip thrust could turn it into a numbers game.....just waiting for that single un-lucky positioning of biners and rope combination....and once is all it takes....and you lose.

Dan
Atlanta
 
Climber 165,

I don't who showed you that split tail set up but sounds like a disaster and I wouldn't use as well. First why is your split tail tied to your biner. If you are using a closed friction hitch like a swabish or a french prussic you can get a tail that is spliced on both ends. I use some 3/8 or 5'16 cord that is tied with a double fishermans knot or it is spliced. Why is your climbing line tied to a biner? You can buy a line that is spliced.

I am sure you will find that is much easier and less work to pull 20 or 30 feet through a crotch when recrotching. It is also nice that you don't have to untie that friction hitcy ever. Same goes for crane work. When I used to do a lot of crane work everyday and used to use a Taught line hitch and a snap I would use a short rope that I called my crane rope. This was a rope that was around 60 feet. That way I didn't have to pull all that rope through the hook.

I say take a look at what some guys are doing and give it a try and stay away from tieing your climbing line to your biner. Have it spliced.
 
tree 165 i can uderstand when you first use a split tail system until you get used to it you may find it a bulky system like anything else you cant use it a couple of times and rush to judgment you have to get comfortable with it because you are using something different than what you are familar with . there are may ways you can set the system up to streamline and make it less bulky such as using a spliced rope for the tail which eliminates one less knot and choice of biners is also very key to the set up as well . i myself use a double locking snap on my climbing line because i always used them and although it is slightly longer than a biner it is narrower than a biner and i snap my split tail biner in the top loop of the snap this way it eliminates having clutter on my d rings and from my experiance eliminates the two snaps from rubbing against each other because when you have two objects rubbing together eventually the odds are that they are going to rub the wrong way and possibly cause one to open or add exsessive contact between the two components. and i know many will read this and say that what if the loop on the snap broke you would lose both contacts and fall . well from my research a good quality steel locking snap at its weakest point is just as strong as any d ring or caribiner and i can not say enough how vital it is to inspect your equipment daily and often and a good steel snap is only about 8 to 12 dollars and when i replace my rope i always replace the snap because i see too many climbers use the same equipment for years and years thinking it lasts forever and there is no need to replace it. but to get back to the split tail system there are a lot of advantages to it more than going around limbs it eliminates the burning of your cimbing line which occurs when you use the old way and in certain situations on a saddle with two rings or two hook up points you can spread the conection point to eliminate the pinching of your hips if you happen to use the old fashion style saddle which in my opinion should be eliminated altogether because it is outdated and there are lots of better designs available and better suited for this industry . and if your tail almost wraps itself around the rope i would have to say its wore out and you should replace it more often because that may seem logicaly like a broke in rope and the way it should be but in all accuallity that is the warning signs the rope is telling you it needs to be replaced because when a rope has a memory in all common care practices of rope it means that the rope is deemed garbage and should not be used for climbing or rigging. and keep in mind that the rope is one of the most important components of a climbing system that keeps you from meeting the forces of gravity and should never be taken for granted.so for now dont give up on the split tail system until you give yourself a chance to fine tune it and get used to it because we all know it can be quite a change when you try something new when you are so used to doing something the same way for so long its almost like learning all over again . but from reading your post it sounds like your using a good system with a poor design and with a new system it requires a new thought process and try to eliminate some of those bulky knots. good luck and be safe
wink.gif
 
I don't agree that using two krabs is any less safe than one. Most accidents with krabs is from poor maintenance - the gate action should be lubed and inspected every day. It is easy for grit to foul up the system.

The best way I've found of staying in the system, is to choker the hitch onto the karabiner with half a double fishermans. This way, if the gate opens, the D is held captive by the gate, and the choked half double fish. is reluctant to come off the krab.

The end of the lifeline can then be tied onto the second krab in the same way. The knot is easy to slide off the krab and use as a weight for throwing. If it gets stuck it will pull through. Alternativley, a long splice can be girth hitched onto the krab.

Too much is made of splices - especially in some split tails. If they can't choke the krab, you risk side loading the krab - then you're in trouble.

Cramming too much thick rope in to one krab, especially an off-set D, is more likely to lead to gate interference.

Tree climbers need better training on safe use of krabs.
 
After 2 hours using a split tail, I went to a closed hitch (Distal). After 3 weeks I still cannot see a benifit for using two biners for attaching my lifeline and hitch ropes to my belt (The rerouting argument doesn't wash, I reroute both sides of my rope together). Does anyone here see a safety issue with using ONE biner (Petzl Williams) to attach both my lifeline and hitch ropes to my belt?
With my current lines, the Williams looks wide enough to accomodate all 3 attachments without being jammed.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: treeclimber165 ]
 
The big benefit I see with two separate attachment points is not having your ropes interfere with your hands as you ascend.
My belt has several well spaced loops that I can use to tie into which gives the rope a fair spread.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigJon:
Climber 165,

I don't who showed you that split tail set up but sounds like a disaster and I wouldn't use as well. First why is your split tail tied to your biner. If you are using a closed friction hitch like a swabish or a french prussic you can get a tail that is spliced on both ends. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason my split tail was tied to my biner is because after about 2 hours of use, I decided the split tail with an open hitch was virtually useless. I tied the end of my split tail in a double fisherman's knot to make a closed hitch using what I had (and just paid $25 for). Sure, spliced ends are cleaner. But to say knots shouldn't be used is rediculous. I am trying to update my climbing system after almost 15 years of climbing on a tautline hitch, and am looking for PRACTICAL answers not requiring hundreds of dollars. I am also experimenting with splicing my own ropes, but I am not there yet.

I guess this forum is geared more toward the competition climber, not the working stiff climbing to pay the mortgage and electric bills. I try to spend my few dollars wisely, buying items that can help me work faster and safer. I am making do with what I have, making sure EVERY link in my system is totally safe and ANSI approved. Splicing every piece of rope I own is not in the budget this year.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: treeclimber165 ]
 
Brian,

I'm not a competition climber and I have to make my mortgage. The cats are cute and cuddly but they don't pay any of the bills in my house.

When the split tail came on the season a decade or more ago I jumped on board for one main reason. That meant that I didn't have to whack off six foot chunks of rope every time the end got toasted. This will save you money for making mortgage payments. Bottom line, that's one of the biggest advantages of the split tail.

Here's another application. You need to recrotch to work another side of the tree. You've climbed over to your new tie in crotch and need to retrieve your rope. All you have to do is untie or unclip the end of your rope and pull the tail out. You don't need to untie your climbing hitch and then untie the rope from your biner/snap and retie the whole shebang.

Most people that I know who have moved from a rope to using a split tail move quickly onto other progressive climbing skills and tools. Using a split tail is the first step.

Tom
 
Most times I usually clip in with my lanyard, then unclip my lifeline and reroute both sides together without untying the hitch. This method works for me, and takes twice as long with two attachments on my belt. This is why I was asking about attaching my lifeline and hitch using one biner. I had a chance to try it today and it worked great. Much less bulk, and rerouting my line was only one clip instead of two.

I love the closed distal hitch, won't go back to an open hitch. But split tails with an open hitch seem worthless to me. Just trying to make the closed hitch as convenient as the old single clip was.
 
Brian

A Petzl Williams is fine for attaching both your hitch and lifeline to. It is a HMS type, designed to have a load spread across the top.

In tests, this type of system broke the krab as the weak link in the system at its rated strength - 22kN. With two Krabs, most hitch systems stalled the test bed or broke the bowline in the lifeline @ 3500Kg!

Both styles give a massive safty margin.

One advantage to having seperate krabs are the multitude of ways you can tie in really quickly - double sliding D so that you can turn between the two, seperated tails so you can sit like a swing seat, choked lifeline to use as SRT on a pole, quick and easy auto prusik set up with no extra gear (works just like a lockjack twin) and choked krabs to stop them turning side ways (one of the biggest dangers).

Are you going to TCI?
wink.gif
I'm still not sure what you mean when you are re-crotching with your system?
 
Here's a tiny added bonus for having 2 carabiners: if, for some darn reason, you need another carabiner, you can just put everything on one for a bit, and use the "extra."

love
nick
 
I climb completly different know that I use a distel. I just pull a few feet rope down then pull out the slack. To me it is faster and easier. I have started to footlock alot. I come down on a figure 8 if I did not have to retie in with my split tail. I sometimes have someone pull the slack out when using the split tail.Why not come up to georgia to a traning session I can show you how and why some of the new stuff is better.
 
Brain, I have run one Carabiner for years.Dont need two carabiners for a split tail system. Now , depending on the saddle people use, they just might run two.I have a Ness saddle that has a delta link and to that I attach my petzel swivel and from there my split tail system on one carabiner.Very clean and close at hand.. This is the way I run it, when I use it, wich is not to often, because I use the Machard. I usually use it for a secound tie in . Use what works for you, but keep trying the new ideas. You never know when you need to pull something out of the subconscience when you didnt like it or it didn't work for you at that time .
Good luck ,
greg
 
I guess one of the other reasons for using two krabs is as Mr Pez said is to prevent incorrect loading of the krab. I have seen several people using the distel etc with a P02 pulley (pivoting side plates) both legs of the distel are tied to the krab with half a double fishermans,(fishermans, pulley in middle then another fishermans) this takes up a lot of space on a HMS type krab, with the addtion of a lifeline also this pushes the hitch to one side, firstly affecting the performance of the hitch, secondly adjusting the way in which the krab is loaded (bringing in almost three way loading and thirdly possibily affecting the action of the gate opening) I have also seen several people replacing the P02 with a P05 (fixed side pulley) this has a rigid bar at the back of the pulley to which some people will tie one of there fishermans, resulting in enough space to add your lifeline and not over cram the krab. Still undecided as to how safe this is, 22kn SWL but that is the load applied to the single end not the part with the rigid bar, as far as i am aware that is not tested to any strength rating? I guess you could say a 100kg person, 500kg on one side of the line, 250kg on each leg of the hitch? If you have a SWL of 22kn on a pulley therefore you have 11kn either side, you must have to have an equal force across the bar to prevent the bar from snapping? Comments
 
I don't see where you're coming from with the ratings Chris. Besides, prusik ratings don't follow the pattern of a basket hitch type rating. As far as the PO5 bar is concerned, it is probably strong enough. The problem is how the flat edge cuts into the hitch. An employer shouldn't allow his staff to use equipment in such a way. If it turns out to be OK in tests and a manufacturer creates a pulley specifically for this use, then thats different.

This highlights my concerns with competition innovations being adopted by industry without proper testing.

PO2 pulleys don't work on most krabs and 12mm rope without a swivel connection, but the ISC micro pulley will. This gives a much better fit and some play for fair leading the rope from a side angle.
 
Thanks for the comment, simply working out firstly whether the bar would actually be strong enough? Appreciate your points about the sharp angles and competiton techniques being bought into everyday climbing without adequate testing etc, but it is becomiong more and more comon place - that's why i thought i'd find out what others thought. Yep, ISC Gold pulley works the best so far.
 
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