New device from ISC

ATH said:
Is there any reason, then, to put something over it for more friction in SRS?
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There really isn't. I have a prototype aluminium tether and was kinda surprised at how well it all goes together. It doesn't feel sluggish at all and I like that it works like a handle when I'm ascending. Either or is good
 
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Oh so there is a cam inside the red body that acts similarly to a built in rope wrench? Similar to the lower cam of the akimbo?
Smart!
 
SoftBankHawks said:
In terms of creating friction I'd say it has a refined design which takes cues from ZigZag, Wrench and Hitch Hiker.
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You are speaking my language here. Your description of the Reflex almost makes me want to come out of retirement? Other than my trepidation concerning the swivel it sounds like the tool I have been dreaming of for the last decade or two. Kudos to you and ISC...
 
Apparently the swivel is designed to come off entirely for placing it on a bridge directly. This means you clip that part into the device. I wonder if they would make a similar fixed attachment? I too strongly dislike swivels.
@SoftBankHawks got any leads or communication channels?
 
evo said:
Apparently the swivel is designed to come off entirely for placing it on a bridge directly. This means you clip that part into the device. I wonder if they would make a similar fixed attachment? I too strongly dislike swivels.
@SoftBankHawks got any leads or communication channels?
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I strongly advised against a non-swivelling attachment.
While saying that, I didn't see the huge benefit of having the swivel come off the body either.
It's difficult to find the sweet-spot between climber taste. For now, it is as you see it.
 
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SoftBankHawks said:
I strongly advised against a non-swivelling attachment.
While saying that, I didn't see the huge benefit of having the swivel come off the body either.
It's difficult to find the sweet-spot between climber taste. For now, it is as you see it.
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Right? A carabiner seems to be a pretty good link to the bridge.

I have a swivel on my bridge. Normally hooked into Unicender (all these new devices has me hoping Unicender II will show up as well - was previewed at TCIA in Pittsburgh 2019...anyhow, back on topic...). Sometimes I use a zigzag with a swivel. With that setup, the carabiner will just spin between the bridge swivel and zigzag swivel, but the rope is never twisted!
 
F
RyanCafferky said:
I climb on a Zigzag every day. I used to climb on the plus with the swivel but now I just love the one without. I just really like the simplicity of it and not having that extra length and motion.
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Fair point, what ever floats your boat. Being modular gives potential for different types of attachment, I'm sure ISC have some of things in mind. Certainly it came up in conversation over the year of trailing the REFLEX.
 
evo said:
Oh so there is a cam inside the red body that acts similarly to a built in rope wrench? Similar to the lower cam of the akimbo?
Smart!
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No, that is not correct. At the bottom of the links there is a friction bar, which is kind of like a Wrench. The inside has a sheave that presses against a static cam.
 
Bart_ said:
Only 2 1/2 zigging links is a bold decision, which partially prompts my question about a possible rope pinch inside. Wonder how they got past the zigzag patent - it says patent applied for.

Using with an apex - is it a DRT rated only device?
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Takes a long time for a full patent to go through, doesn't fit real-world development and marketing return on investment necessities. A lot of products carry "patent pending" marks, it is like "provisional" patent protection. It's no indication that ISC is having problems with the Zig-Zag patent.

It appears to be sufficiently different. Link/friction arms are a very different design and the midline attachment functionality sets them apart. All of this is based on rappel racks, the Unicender is very similar. Petzl can't patent that lineage only the specifics of their design as far as I can see it.

After all the Chicane is a much more direct rework of the Singing Tree ZK-1 Rope Wrench, patent infringement there is much more plausible. Why didn't that become an intellectual property conflict? Maybe the Reflex is ISC's revenge ;-)
-AJ
 
SoftBankHawks said:
It has three points of friction.
(1) Upper links, which have an (2) extended section, what I call an inverted rope wrench and a (3) rotating sheave that pushes against a static cam.

It self regulates friction. I have used it in ropes down to 9mm, with no slippage while retaining a smooth descent function.

It may look over designed but I'm telling you the function is simplicity itself.
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Great news that it "self adjusts" and functions well on 9mm!
-AJ
 
In regards to any potential patent infringement Petzl likely doesn’t care because when it comes down to it the Zigzag will likely always outsell the ISC device because of one thing: Price. Also, it is comparatively simple and more suited for less technically minded folks: new climbers and those doing basic tree work day after day.

Legal wrangling is expensive and it isn’t like this is a multi billion dollar market here that is being cornered. It is a niche product in a niche market.
 
RyanCafferky said:
In regards to any potential patent infringement Petzl likely doesn’t care because when it comes down to it the Zigzag will likely always outsell the ISC device because of one thing: Price. Also, it is comparatively simple and more suited for less technically minded folks: new climbers and those doing basic tree work day after day.

Legal wrangling is expensive and it isn’t like this is a multi billion dollar market here that is being cornered. It is a niche product in a niche market.
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Practicalities. On the other hand Petzl likely has an in-house IP legal team. Sometimes the "big boys and girls" like to discipline the competition because they can. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
AJ
 
moss said:
I may be more excited about the ISC "UltraLink Small" as recommended by ISC for the Apex tether attachment. I'll no longer have to build my own stainless Slic Pin bow shackles as fun as it is ;-)

The Reflex appears to be an awesome device.

https://www.iscwales.com/Products/Detail/LK100A-UltraLink-Small/

-AJ
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I thought there was some discussion about this a few years ago and concerns about unintentional opening. I agree though...it looks great - but I haven't bought one. Don't picture using it a bunch myself, but it looks like it would suit other setups well.
 
moss said:
Takes a long time for a full patent to go through, doesn't fit real-world development and marketing return on investment necessities. A lot of products carry "patent pending" marks, it is like "provisional" patent protection. It's no indication that ISC is having problems with the Zig-Zag patent.

It appears to be sufficiently different. Link/friction arms are a very different design and the midline attachment functionality sets them apart. All of this is based on rappel racks, the Unicender is very similar. Petzl can't patent that lineage only the specifics of their design as far as I can see it.

After all the Chicane is a much more direct rework of the Singing Tree ZK-1 Rope Wrench, patent infringement there is much more plausible. Why didn't that become an intellectual property conflict? Maybe the Reflex is ISC's revenge ;-)
-AJ
Click to expand...

Rapel racks are not passive on ascent which is in my mind how the uni and zigzag differentiate from them...

Looks like the folks that were the first to clone a ZK2 are in turn being cloned.
 
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